Fwurg

[Brend]

This post is directly related to [ Jedi Temple ] Nathan's return.

Before I reply to Nathan's reasoning and proposal I want to ask for some clarification in an OOC channel. Just to make sure that we are on one line.

I have several questions for Dragonmaster352. For ease of replying, I have numbered them and I have refrained from putting my thoughts with the answer to prevent biasing the answers:

1. Is it only Nathan's IC opinion, or also Dragonmaster352's opinion that the Jedi Temple on Unity is "one of the most extravagant buildings on Unity"?
2. Is it only Nathan's IC opinion, or also Dragonmaster352's opinion that the Jedi emply what Nathan calls child-soldiers?
3. Is it Nathan's IC goal to be a Gray jedi, or also Dragonmater352's OOC goal to play a Gray jedi character?
4. Is it Nathan's IC opinion, or also Dragonmaster352's opinion that the Jedi Council is problematic, hypocritical and dishonest?
5. Is it Nathan's IC opinion, or also Dragonmster352's opinion, that Nathan has sufficiently elaborated on these problems to clarify them to the council?
6. Is Dragonmaster352 interested in a discussion with the Jedi Council that influences the way Nathan sees the world, or is Dragonmaster352 interested in getting a specific outcome from this discussion?

As you can see, I focus strongly on the IC/OOC boundary here, as it is very difficult for me to divine the OOC goals and opinions of a player behind the disortion of an IC character's "opinion-filter".

I would have done this through a PM. However, the answers might be relevant to all involved, especially those playing a Jedi Master in the related thread, but also anyone playing a Jedi.

Once the answers are in, I will probably follow up with a short discussion on some of the aspects of these questions as they relate to our shared view on the game world.

[Elmer]

I am also very interested in what Dragonmaster352 his wish is, how he likes to play Nathan, so I can help working to the desired result with Master Monifa :).

[Dragonmaster352]

1.: The way I imagine the Jedi Temple is like the temple on Coruscant seen in the movies. As it says on the wiki there are also the additional facilities, but those aren't relevant to this because they aren't referred to. Based on its design and size, it signals wealth and power. Even if that is not its intent. Aside from the senate building, I don't think there are many other buildings on Unity like that. OOCly I have no issues with this what so ever, but it doesn't really strike me as Jedi-like. ICly Nathan uses similar lines of reasoning, but he has more issues with it.

Conclusion: I think the temple is "extravagant" both OOC and IC but only IC do I see it as an issue.

2.: Having only the movies and some games as reference material, Jedi have always come across to me as unique warriors and/or special soldiers. I know this isn't the whole story, but that is what I think when I think Jedi. Technically speaking, sending minors into combat situations to fight is using child-soldiers. This has happened to Darones Rei, who is 13 years old according to his character page. However because it's debatable if the Jedi are soldiers/warriors or not, it could be argued that it wasn't the councils intent to have him fight. Regardless, Nathan's opinion is that they do.

Conclusion: OOC I'm not sure the Jedi employ child-soldiers, IC I am.

3.: Nathan does want to be a Grey Jedi and I would like him to become that. I don't know if this would cause OOC or IC problems with regard to missions and such. No conclusion here.

4.: When I discovered Grey Jedi I liked the idea. It also seemed in line with Nathan's character. I didn't want him to just have Force powers that are more in line with the Dark side, which wouldn't result in a lot of roleplay or character development. I didn't want to give him Force Lightning because in the movies Darth Vader couldn't use it because his hands were cybernetic, just like Nathan's are. Because of this I began looking for reasons Nathan wouldn't simply become a Jedi. It seemed only natural to have him do that because of issues he had with the Jedi. Based on the observations I made I noticed some hypocrisy and ideological problems. Nathan didn't really classify it as problematic, until it was asked of him. At that point it seemed like the best way to get his point across and move towards the goal of him becoming a Grey Jedi. He didn't really mean to call the Council dishonest, it was more that having those problems and ignoring them to become a Jedi would be dishonest of him. OOC I think few have even noticed the problems Nathan raised, also I realise a storyteller can't refuse an applicant for a mission based on the age of the character for fairness reasons. Also I don't think there is enough roleplay for the council to classify them as anything with certainty. Reasons for lack of roleplay are obvious: Only 1 PC and the rest is NPC.

Conclusion: I don't think the council does enough roleplay to say they are anything, however as the leaders they would be responsible for things.

5.: I don't think I can really elaborate any further without some extensive research. Also I don't know if Nathan has access to reports from missions he wasn't on. There is a lack of data as the missions we roleplay aren't the only mission that are being done, but I can't draw on the unplayed missions of NPCs as these can't be countered or confirmed. Also the problems Nathan raises don't refer to specific incidents or events.

Conclusion: I don't think I can get much more specific in clarifying the problems raised without at least knowing if Nathan has access to mission reports he wasn't on.

6.: The outcome I would like most is for Nathan to be allowed to become a Grey Jedi and still be able to go on missions (this might cause IC issues during those missions if the Grey Jedi way and the Jedi way conflict). I don't think Nathan will change his views. I don't mind if the Jedi don't allow him to become a Grey Jedi, but then I would like to ask another way to roleplay him becoming a Grey Jedi. I have a few ideas on how that could be done in interesting ways, but I will give those in a later post.

Conclusion: My goal is that Nathan becomes a Gray Jedi.

Final conclusion: I have no interest in changing the Jedi as they are now, I also don't really have issues with the council from an OOC point. I have (tried) to use logic and reason to come up with the issues Nathan raised. I have no real feelings or opinions about them, mostly because I recognise that FWURG is just a game.

[Brend]

I have a few follow-up notes, mostly to lay out my envisioning of several aspects of the Jedi as we use them in the FWURG universe.

1.: The way I envision it is less like the temple on coruscant, since Unity City and the Union are both much smaller than their respective counterparts Coruscant and the Old/New Republic. I base this view, in part, the fact that the Jedi seem to be flying around in mostly run-down or fixed-up ships, do have access to a lot of equipment but only due to their backing from the Union. I see the Jedi temple as a sober version of the centuries-old temple on Coruscant, without ostentatious displays of wealth, and more focused on form following function. They have a garden, but it has a direct function, etc. I do think that the wiki leaves a lot of ambiguity about the actual appearance and context of the Jedi temple, so both views can be defended -- though I must say that I did not envision the Jedi Temple in Unity City as being extraordinarily big or more impressive than other buildings, only situated more clearly as a separate building with a courtyard around it and such.

2.: This is a point that I ran into while playing Ajava as well: the council sends out younger children on dangerous spying missions into enemy territory... On the other hand, it is also true that the Jedi have a hand in teaching children from a very young age (even though several PC Jedi came into the Order at a later age). And not all races have the same maturation "profile" in that their children might be mentally adult even at the age of 9, or only at the age of 120. Add to that the fact that not all children develop at the same speed, and the influence of the Force on events. This makes it difficult for me to OOCly argue that the Jedi are creating child-soldiers.

4.: I think that the lack of RP by the Jedi council makes their "decisions" more easily interpretable as hypocritical, dishonest, or disingenuous. I would OOCly caution against claiming outright hypocrisy or ideological problems, since so little is actually known of the reasons of the council; assuming that the council is not acting in good faith is in effect assuming that the Jedi Council is not the Jedi Council at all -- the whole point is that they act in good faith and attempt to work toward the good for all, a lack of RP should not imply otherwise. (And of course, the not rejecting players thing is a purely OOC issue.)

5.: As far as I am aware, all Jedi have access to all Mission reports unless they are explicitly classified or private (which is noted on their story page). That said, it is my personal opinion (based purely on what I have been able to observer so far, so this is not an accurate image of the situation) that an accusation of hypocricy or serious problems levelled at the council should be supported by more argumentation than Nathan has currently provided. Especially since a request for elaboration was parried with "these are general problems". And ideological problems should also be based on more than the simple statement that the Jedi do less good than they could be doing. (Though this also hooks in differing OOC views on the Jedi Order and their presence on Unity as stated in 1.)


Now, on to the thing I find most difficult to discuss:

3. & 6.: A few years ago, I discussed the option of having Ajava leave the Jedi order and strike out on her own. She was seeing several of the same issues Nathan cites, and I was OOCly toying with the idea having Ajava leave the Order because of it. I also investigated the idea of the Gray Jedi, and how this would impact both my character and the Jedi order.

Back then, Mercury and I concluded that playing a Grey Jedi (or any other variant of non-Sith) would mean not participating in missions anymore, and not getting any or mission completions because of it. This sounds harsh, but this is because of OOC reasons: there are too few missions already, and Jedi missions are usually run for members of the Jedi Order because that means multiple participants in one mission.

Combined missions are difficult to justify, because there is little reason for the Order to ask a Grey Jedi to join in a mission if there's already three or four volunteers inside the Order. In conclusion, a few years ago, the option to play a Grey Jedi was not really on the table -- and to be honest, I do not really see a way that that playstyle is more viable now.

On the IC front I do not really see the council as a teaching Jedi to become grey Jedi. They will not stop you from leaving, or from pursuing your own goals. But they will keep an eye on anyone that left the Jedi Order but stays active within the Union (if only to make sure that the Senate is not "suggested" to vote someone into power by a wayward Jedi or Sith).


So, overall, I personally do think that becoming a Grey Jedi is an intersting route for character development, but from the perspective of playability I think it's not a good plan.

(Curious what others think of this.)

[Gerben]

I find that views about the Jedi and the Jedi temple vary depended upon which source you use, either the movies (old vs new) and/or several different book and internet sources. However I do believe this discussion can have a meanfull impact, at least with our FWURG universe.

ad 1) I do not believe the Jedi and the Jedi are comparable to the Jedi in the movies and the Temple on Coruscant. Yes the Temple is one of largest building on Unity, but this is not strange given the importance and rarity of a Jedi Temple, besides Union is a barren, lone planet without a star, so really any building can be considered extremely expensive. I dont feel that is a particular problem.

ad 2) Yes the Jedi do train and use children, however I'm not sure whether they should be considered child soldiers. In many way the fact the Order is willing to take them in, is driven by the fact they are 'stronk' in the Force. In the case of Darones, yes it is true that he was rather young when I created him 5 years ago. I rather liked the idea of playing his as a bit younger and let his experiences influence his growth and the direction of his development.

ad 4) I dont feel that the council is hypocritical, dishonest, or disingenuous. From an RP perspective they aren't played much and are merely there a dictated by Lore.

ad 3, 5 and 6) Though playing a Grey Jedi is an interesting development, and I feel one fitting for Nathan. I do feel that the objections raised against having Grey Jedi and Sith as playable characters are justified.

[Dragonmaster352]

After reading the arguments, I have to agree that becoming a Grey Jedi isn't going to be as easy as I originally thought. I said I had a few ideas on how it could be done, but in hindsight those ideas aren't really viable.

I did get a different idea. Nathan could become a bit like Qui-Gon Jinn who, according to the starwars wiki, showed some Grey Jedi traits. Though I would make Nathan more gray.

Compared to other Jedi he would have more knowledge of the Dark side, some dark Force powers. Frequent disagreement with the council. But still technically a Jedi.

He wouldn't be taught these things obviously. He might learn some of it on his own, from trial and error or from texts the Jedi have. Perhaps he meets someone who teaches him a few things, but that may be difficult to explain IC. (idea dump: Sith prisoner? Someone he meets who knows about the dark side? Something else?)

It's probably going to be difficult to make Nathan a Grey Jedi, but I'm not ready to give up just yet. Thoughts on this?

[Chriz]

I believe the questions posed here are interesting and worth revisiting. Brend makes a good point that we have been in a similar situation some time ago with Ajava. However I believe that at this moment with most characters at higher levels and with their own personas we could try something like this. To be honest we have already had multiple characters that acted 'dark' or sometimes just plain stupid which could have been explained as evil in some situations as well.

In my opinion there are already multiple characters that are not light Jedi per se. Therefore I believe that we should look into using this. Maybe we could move the almighty light Jedi Masters to the background and let the missions come from Union worlds giving our characters more space.

I still agree that going Sith will not work since this will not play well with others and simply can not be controlled, however we already have multiple force powers that could be explained as or at least used as grey Jedi powers. I believe we could look into this and would like to know more about Dragonmasters ideas.

Some time ago Brend was seriously considering splitting of from the Jedi Order with his character, we could probably reconsider this kind of action if we decide to do it with a group of player characters. Actually splitting up the Jedi would make for some serious interesting roleplay I believe. We don't have to go versus, we could just split up because we have different beliefs. I am not thinking about a Muslims versus Christians crusade, more along the lines of the Catholics and the Protestants they disagree on many things but have accepted each others existence.

Anyway I am in for this idea, Ariana has kind of been an outcast for some time already and is not really able to connect to the Jedi Masters, she is doubting their ways.

[Elmer]

I have something to say about the we play in general and why I think that is.

90 vs 10, dark side wins

Something to realise, is that to most players, it is very tempting to play 'dark'. I believe because this is because it is easier, more powerful but overall, more 'cooler'. For example, I heard that with one of the Star Wars on-line roleplay games (KTOR I believe), where you could choose between the light and the dark side, over 90% of the players chose the dark side.

What I try to tell is that we must realise the consequences if players are unrestricted, the Union will be overrun by powerful force users raining havoc on small villages because they want a space ship.

With Trigiel I had a similar 'dark side experience'. When I started playing him he was much more a renegade and had little care for others. However over the years when I and my jedi have grown, Trigiel has seen the errors of his ways and is full light side now.

so much for my 'dark side is not unique side' talk.

Playing a jedi

Here we see a big discrepancy between what is taught IC and what is played. In general, the jedi are thought to be an objective side which can be asked for advice. In practice, we like action. So where, according to the intended jedi lore, the jedi should care for others, offer advice and protect the weak, they are played in high packed blaster fights with explosions and saber duels.

This is understandable: when you got a powerful individual, it is more fun to play up to his powers. Being a super soldier with mind control and 1337-hack skills which spend his time in conference rooms negotiating peace is well... lame. We have politicians for that.

As a result, we do some concessions to the roles the jedi fulfil, to promote fun roleplay.

The jedi order

As far I know, the jedi order is created for the simple reason: to prevent powerful force users (the players) to run around and cause havoc. This both IC and OOC. Therefore the teachings of the order are those to guide the ones with potential a lot of power (force sensitive individuals e.g. player characters) in such a way that they can live up to their potential without single handedly disturbing the balance of power or toppling the game play we have.

This means that the teachings of the order sometimes looks strange when you look at the missions, because it is. It is a simple result of what is cool to play, what is logically lore-wise and what is necessary to keep the universe intact.

What to play

FWURG is meant to be fun to play. So if players want to play grey jedi or other less pacify peace-monk characters, we should look into ways to facilitate that. One way indeed is for a jedi to explore the dark side on his own and just role with the jedi order and see where we end up.

Another way to facilitate is to make the missions less jedi order focussed, and more mission focussed. Someone, a faction, the Union, an individual, hands out a mission, players can join with whatever they feel fitting and the party goes on with the mission.

So far, I cannot think of a third way.

The advantage of the first way is that it will be easier to balance the difficulty of the missions, since all players are roughly within a certain range of power and there are less wild cards. The advantage of the second way is that it is more open to enter cool Star Wars stuff and other characters. Opening interaction to the world and factions during in the field situations. And also allowing players to more displaying the cool stuff they think of. Downsides are that players intent to bring everything to a mission they are allowed to. 'I can bring a star destroyer? I bring a star destroyer!' 'Negotiation mission? Here is my team of cyborg soldiers and infiltration droids... and star destroyer, don't forget my star destroyer, actually, I have two now!'

in conclusion

What this entitles for Nathan his situation, I don't know yet. I will think about that later as I have used all my time for this analysis. (It took a little longer than expected.)

[Dragonmaster352]

I, Brend and Mercury had a small discussion about this topic and I said I would think about that.

Having done so, I will now put my decision here.

I'm not done with Nathan as a jedi. He's going to go with a Qui-Gon Jinn route. There may be a few instances he will bump heads with more 'light' oriented jedi. I think this will provide some interesting roleplay :). For the foreseeable future he will remain with the jedi.

[Brend]

Sounds good.

Might I suggest first becoming a Jedi Knight? This gives Nathan more freedom to learn different things, as it comes with greater access to knowledge, and shows a level of maturity that is needed to fully comprehend the difficulties different force philosophies.

Also, Ajava has some knowledge about non-light things -- do you think it would be interesting if she approaches Nathan after the council discussion to offer some assistance on his path?

[Dragonmaster352]

Might I suggest first becoming a Jedi Knight?

That was my plan anyway.

Also, Ajava has some knowledge about non-light things -- do you think it would be interesting if she approaches Nathan after the council discussion to offer some assistance on his path?

yes.