[ Senate ] Compromising on the matter of slavery
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[ Senate ] Compromising on the matter of slavery
Nehket Aeka » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:18 pm
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Nehket Aeka - PC
((OOC: See also: [ Senate ] Basic declaration of sentient rights discussion))
"Senators, representatives,
Several worlds have banded together for a common cause. The Hiocan Society, Astrian Colonial Authority, Silver Forests of Remunzia and the Teprogrenaian Consensus are working together to abolish slavery. In and of itself this is a commendable development. Finding common ground between worlds and building relations based on that common ground is one of the principles of the Union.
However, in their zeal to achieve their goal, these worlds are pushing to abolish slavery by means of declaring law against it. They do so by using the declaration of sentient rights as a vehicle for their position, and calling for the declaration to be made into law at the earliest possibility.
It is understandable that these worlds seek to quickly end a practice they see as morally unjust. But in doing so, they have sidestepped another principle of the Union: discussion and compromise. It is not the way of the Union to force others to submit to one's position through passing law, but to discuss the matter and find a compromise that is acceptable to all worlds."
The chancellor looks around the senate.
"I have called for this discussion to find a compromise on the matter of slavery.
Before we can find a compromise it is important to know what is being discussed. So first, I invite senator Harek to elaborate on his world's position on slavery. I ask everyone to allow the senator to say his piece in full before adding their support or rebuttal to the discussion."
"Senators, representatives,
Several worlds have banded together for a common cause. The Hiocan Society, Astrian Colonial Authority, Silver Forests of Remunzia and the Teprogrenaian Consensus are working together to abolish slavery. In and of itself this is a commendable development. Finding common ground between worlds and building relations based on that common ground is one of the principles of the Union.
However, in their zeal to achieve their goal, these worlds are pushing to abolish slavery by means of declaring law against it. They do so by using the declaration of sentient rights as a vehicle for their position, and calling for the declaration to be made into law at the earliest possibility.
It is understandable that these worlds seek to quickly end a practice they see as morally unjust. But in doing so, they have sidestepped another principle of the Union: discussion and compromise. It is not the way of the Union to force others to submit to one's position through passing law, but to discuss the matter and find a compromise that is acceptable to all worlds."
The chancellor looks around the senate.
"I have called for this discussion to find a compromise on the matter of slavery.
Before we can find a compromise it is important to know what is being discussed. So first, I invite senator Harek to elaborate on his world's position on slavery. I ask everyone to allow the senator to say his piece in full before adding their support or rebuttal to the discussion."
Senator Harek » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:18 pm
“Chancelor Nehket Aeka, from the start the sentients rights declaration was a discussion so that we could first find a consensus as there are various different cultures in the Union. The Senate however was more interested in the phrasing of the rights than discussing the various points on their content and impact. The Hiocan Society deems this proposal to be very important and we therefore want this to be a law. But various proposal were made and I think we can together find a way to implement this in the Union."
Senator Harek takes a short pause and takes a look through the Senate.
"I shall give you a short history to elaborate the Hiocan point of view on the matter of slavery. The Hiocan race was long ago a barbaric race, where various tribes fought each other. Violence, betting, use of a lot of drugs, kidnapping, slavery, where part of their culture. Until one leader Lotak wanted to stop the wars to create peace and collaboration between the tribes. He preached for controlling your emotions and use logic to make a wise decision that benefits everybody. It took quite some time but in the end it paid off and he succeeded.
Slavery is controlling/oppressing another being. This has various physical and mental consequences on the slave. We have studied this and we have come to the conclusion that even modern slavery is bad for the enslaved. We believe that it is best that every sentient creature is free to find their own happiness themselves (without endangering others).”
Senator Harek takes a short pause and takes a look through the Senate.
"I shall give you a short history to elaborate the Hiocan point of view on the matter of slavery. The Hiocan race was long ago a barbaric race, where various tribes fought each other. Violence, betting, use of a lot of drugs, kidnapping, slavery, where part of their culture. Until one leader Lotak wanted to stop the wars to create peace and collaboration between the tribes. He preached for controlling your emotions and use logic to make a wise decision that benefits everybody. It took quite some time but in the end it paid off and he succeeded.
Slavery is controlling/oppressing another being. This has various physical and mental consequences on the slave. We have studied this and we have come to the conclusion that even modern slavery is bad for the enslaved. We believe that it is best that every sentient creature is free to find their own happiness themselves (without endangering others).”
Nehket Aeka » Sun May 03, 2015 2:23 pm
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Nehket Aeka - PC
"Thank you for elaborating senator Harek.",
The chancellor looks at the assembled senate.
"I will now open the floor to allow other senators and representatives to posit their world's current view on the matter of slavery.
If your world want to support or rebut the position of the Hiocan Society, the coming week is a good time to do so. The Veolian Commonwealth will speak last on the matter, to ensure that my position does not unduely influence others."
((OOC: Note for clarity: I plan on keeping the floor open for 1 week (and posting myself on saturdat 2015-05-09), after that I am continuing regardless of your worlds' opinion.))
The chancellor looks at the assembled senate.
"I will now open the floor to allow other senators and representatives to posit their world's current view on the matter of slavery.
If your world want to support or rebut the position of the Hiocan Society, the coming week is a good time to do so. The Veolian Commonwealth will speak last on the matter, to ensure that my position does not unduely influence others."
((OOC: Note for clarity: I plan on keeping the floor open for 1 week (and posting myself on saturdat 2015-05-09), after that I am continuing regardless of your worlds' opinion.))
Lady Peinaili de Montrève » Sun May 03, 2015 2:51 pm
"Thank you Chancellor," Peinaili stated after taking the floor.
" Senator Harek, eventhough you have tried to offer a definition of what you consider to be slavery, namely the oppression or controlling of others, I find it hard to see the wrong in that, nor does it, in my humble opinion, define slavery adequately enough.
Let me give you two examples, for which I ask you to tell me whether they would be considered slavery or not and whether or not they are morally undesirable:
a) suppose a group of soldiers being given an order by their direct superior. Since they are forced, by common practice and the way the military structure works, to complete the task by the best of their abilities or face severe penalties. In a way, they have no choice of there own, and could thus be considered not free, but slaves of their commanding officer.
b) suppose an artisan, with a good standing, proud and happy with his life, his master has provided for him and his family. Without it, it is more than likely that his family would barely survive. As such the artisan has much to be grateful for, and gladly works in service of his master.
" Senator Harek, eventhough you have tried to offer a definition of what you consider to be slavery, namely the oppression or controlling of others, I find it hard to see the wrong in that, nor does it, in my humble opinion, define slavery adequately enough.
Let me give you two examples, for which I ask you to tell me whether they would be considered slavery or not and whether or not they are morally undesirable:
a) suppose a group of soldiers being given an order by their direct superior. Since they are forced, by common practice and the way the military structure works, to complete the task by the best of their abilities or face severe penalties. In a way, they have no choice of there own, and could thus be considered not free, but slaves of their commanding officer.
b) suppose an artisan, with a good standing, proud and happy with his life, his master has provided for him and his family. Without it, it is more than likely that his family would barely survive. As such the artisan has much to be grateful for, and gladly works in service of his master.
Senator Danar Tassar » Tue May 05, 2015 8:28 pm
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Senator Danar Tassar - PC
- Location: Unity
"First let us of the Consensus say that we never intent to sidestep discussion and compromise and we see this discussion in the senate as an essential part in the discussion around slavery. Let us also repeat that we are against forcing members to change their culture. This should be known knowledge, Chancellor." The last part was directly mentioned towards Aeka.
Then Tassar directed his attention again to towards the rest of the senate: "Now on the matter of slavery: We see the possession of other sentient beings as slavery, to take away their choice and freedom simply because you 'own them'. An individual should always have the option to choose for himself, to make his own decisions and to let hear his own voice. The trading of an individual against the will of the individual therefore is a practice we are firmly against."
Then Tassar directed his attention again to towards the rest of the senate: "Now on the matter of slavery: We see the possession of other sentient beings as slavery, to take away their choice and freedom simply because you 'own them'. An individual should always have the option to choose for himself, to make his own decisions and to let hear his own voice. The trading of an individual against the will of the individual therefore is a practice we are firmly against."
Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima » Fri May 08, 2015 7:50 pm
"Senator de Montrève, does a soldier not have the duty, the obligation, to refuse an illegitimate order? Is the fact they have a mind of their own not the reason to use regular soldiers instead of droids?" Kachiso started, looking at the Sundarian Senator.
Turning to the Senate he continued.
"The one thing each and everyone of us has in common with each other is the one thing that sets us apart from the other forms of life. That one thing is the fact we are not only aware of ourselves and our own wishes and needs, but also of the needs and wishes of others and the existence of more then just the things we see and the people we meet. This awareness allows us to understand each other it allows us to discuss matters in a civilised matter where each opinion has equal value. It allowed us to reach this point and it will allow us to go beyond our current capabilities. It is this very awareness that inspired the creation of art, of science and the Union itself.
However, the notion that someone can be owned like a piece of property calls this awareness into question. It puts those species who have this awareness on the same level as cattle, which is in itself an insulting notion. It negates the mutual respect required to discuss problems in an equal and civilised manner. It calls into question the membership of each world of the Union and in fact calls into question the legitimacy of this very Senate.
Slavery is not just a crime, it is a terrible insult to every member of a species that has such an awareness and in fact to the very founding principles of the Union itself."
The Astrian Senator paused before looking to the Chancellor.
"Chancellor, great civilizations are not just recognised by their achievements. But by admitting their mistakes and correcting them.
I ask..., no..." The man bowed. "I Beg of the Veolian Commonwealth and all other Union members who allow slavery to show us their greatness by freeing their slaves and never letting slavery blemish their worlds ever again."
Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima remained bowing for a few moments, before he stood back straight.
Turning to the Senate he continued.
"The one thing each and everyone of us has in common with each other is the one thing that sets us apart from the other forms of life. That one thing is the fact we are not only aware of ourselves and our own wishes and needs, but also of the needs and wishes of others and the existence of more then just the things we see and the people we meet. This awareness allows us to understand each other it allows us to discuss matters in a civilised matter where each opinion has equal value. It allowed us to reach this point and it will allow us to go beyond our current capabilities. It is this very awareness that inspired the creation of art, of science and the Union itself.
However, the notion that someone can be owned like a piece of property calls this awareness into question. It puts those species who have this awareness on the same level as cattle, which is in itself an insulting notion. It negates the mutual respect required to discuss problems in an equal and civilised manner. It calls into question the membership of each world of the Union and in fact calls into question the legitimacy of this very Senate.
Slavery is not just a crime, it is a terrible insult to every member of a species that has such an awareness and in fact to the very founding principles of the Union itself."
The Astrian Senator paused before looking to the Chancellor.
"Chancellor, great civilizations are not just recognised by their achievements. But by admitting their mistakes and correcting them.
I ask..., no..." The man bowed. "I Beg of the Veolian Commonwealth and all other Union members who allow slavery to show us their greatness by freeing their slaves and never letting slavery blemish their worlds ever again."
Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima remained bowing for a few moments, before he stood back straight.
Lady Peinaili de Montrève » Fri May 08, 2015 8:02 pm
"That's just it,Senator Doshima"
The Lady de Montrève retook the stand after the senator had said what he wanted to say,
"What you say is what we'd all expect from good soldiers, when given a illegitimate order. However when formulating my example, I did not say the anything about that whether the order itself would illegitimate or not, and to be honest that is besides the point. I'm afraid my question still remains unanswered thus far."
((OOC: fixed an autocorrect error))
The Lady de Montrève retook the stand after the senator had said what he wanted to say,
"What you say is what we'd all expect from good soldiers, when given a illegitimate order. However when formulating my example, I did not say the anything about that whether the order itself would illegitimate or not, and to be honest that is besides the point. I'm afraid my question still remains unanswered thus far."
((OOC: fixed an autocorrect error))
Last edited by Lady Peinaili de Montrève on Mon May 11, 2015 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nehket Aeka » Sun May 10, 2015 11:03 pm
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Nehket Aeka - PC
"Thank you, senators, for sharing your opinion on the matter with the senate. Now, before I present a first attempt at a compromise, I will present the Veolian view on the matter of slavery."
"Two of our principles, a pillar of the veolian way of life, are as follows. First, It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak, and it is the duty of the weak to support the strong. Second, one must always strive to improve oneself. We see these principles mirrored in the galaxy around us, at many levels, and in many different ways.
We see these principles manifest in all things. The nobility protects the commoners, and in return the commoners support the nobility. The emperor protects the nobility, and in return the nobility supports the emperor. And even on a galactic scale, we recognize the principle: the Union protects the Commonwealth, and in return the Commonwealth supports the Union.
While the word of the nobility is enough to resolve most problems, the nobility can not be in several places at once. Appointing a representative only works if said representative carries the voice of the nobility truthfully and without ulterior motive. And no one can do so without ignoring the second principle of our culture: to improve oneself. And anyone not seeking to improve is unworthy of being a representative."
As the chancellor speaks, her slave Serrah gets up to stand at her side.
"There is need for a representative so strongly bound to our own fortune, our fortunes so intricately intertwined, that any action taken by them is as an action taken by ourselves. This is the position our slaves hold. They are not cheap labour, they are not simple entertainment, and they are most certainly not simply property to be traded for profit. They speak with out voice, and they write with our hand. They are an intrinsic part of us, and when we rise, they rise with us. Together we rise far beyond what we can accomplish by ourselves."
As experienced speakers and connoisseurs of political statements, the assembled senate can easily determine that the chancellor meant every word of what she just said.
"Two of our principles, a pillar of the veolian way of life, are as follows. First, It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak, and it is the duty of the weak to support the strong. Second, one must always strive to improve oneself. We see these principles mirrored in the galaxy around us, at many levels, and in many different ways.
We see these principles manifest in all things. The nobility protects the commoners, and in return the commoners support the nobility. The emperor protects the nobility, and in return the nobility supports the emperor. And even on a galactic scale, we recognize the principle: the Union protects the Commonwealth, and in return the Commonwealth supports the Union.
While the word of the nobility is enough to resolve most problems, the nobility can not be in several places at once. Appointing a representative only works if said representative carries the voice of the nobility truthfully and without ulterior motive. And no one can do so without ignoring the second principle of our culture: to improve oneself. And anyone not seeking to improve is unworthy of being a representative."
As the chancellor speaks, her slave Serrah gets up to stand at her side.
"There is need for a representative so strongly bound to our own fortune, our fortunes so intricately intertwined, that any action taken by them is as an action taken by ourselves. This is the position our slaves hold. They are not cheap labour, they are not simple entertainment, and they are most certainly not simply property to be traded for profit. They speak with out voice, and they write with our hand. They are an intrinsic part of us, and when we rise, they rise with us. Together we rise far beyond what we can accomplish by ourselves."
As experienced speakers and connoisseurs of political statements, the assembled senate can easily determine that the chancellor meant every word of what she just said.
Nehket Aeka » Sun May 10, 2015 11:07 pm
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Nehket Aeka - PC
"I realize now that it might be good to allow for some cross-examination of the posited points of view before we get into the discussion on a compromise. This will allow us to better pinpoint the areas where our differing views can not be reconciled."
"I suggest that senators keep their questions short and focussed, with some elaboration to clarify their question if needed."
((OOC: I plan on keeping this questions phase for a week (two of a lot of activity occurs). I urge everyone to answer questions directed at them, so we can keep this moving.))
"I suggest that senators keep their questions short and focussed, with some elaboration to clarify their question if needed."
((OOC: I plan on keeping this questions phase for a week (two of a lot of activity occurs). I urge everyone to answer questions directed at them, so we can keep this moving.))
Senator Harek » Tue May 12, 2015 9:36 pm
Senator Hareks looks pleased to Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima, he seems to be spirited. He listen also to what the other have to say. The cancellor is managing the discussion well and he takes his turn.
"Dear Lady de Montrève,
You need not to be a slave to have a benefactor to support you. A soldier choices his profession and can decide to follow orders or not, where as most slaves do not have a that choice."
"Dear Chancellor Nehket Aeka
I would like to know how own becomes a slave in the Veolian Commonwealth. Are you born a slave or can you sell yourselves? If the slave is part of their master I presume their are some restrictions. Furthermore, what happens when the slave does not want to be a slave anymore (was forced to sign or false pretense) or when he/she/it betrays their master?"
"Dear Lady de Montrève,
You need not to be a slave to have a benefactor to support you. A soldier choices his profession and can decide to follow orders or not, where as most slaves do not have a that choice."
"Dear Chancellor Nehket Aeka
I would like to know how own becomes a slave in the Veolian Commonwealth. Are you born a slave or can you sell yourselves? If the slave is part of their master I presume their are some restrictions. Furthermore, what happens when the slave does not want to be a slave anymore (was forced to sign or false pretense) or when he/she/it betrays their master?"
Nehket Aeka » Fri May 15, 2015 4:51 pm
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Nehket Aeka - PC
"Senator Harek, I am glad that you have asked these questions, as the answers might help to clear up some misconceptions."
She looks at the assembled senate before speaking in a clear voice.
"According to veolian law and culture, one can only become a slave by one's own choice.
No one is born a slave, as this goes against the free will of that individual to consciously choose to become a slave. If a child is brought into the world by a slave, that slave's owner bears the full responsibility for that child as if it were their own.
If someone is not a slave but a prospective owner desires to have them as such, it is legally required to ask the prospective slave whether they consent to become a slave. This consent is then given in the form of a ritualized signing of a consent contract. The signing of such a consent contract must be witnessed, with several requirements placed upon the witnesses to ensure that they are a neutral party. If a witness has doubts that the person is being coerced, they are legally allowed to take appropriate measure to prevent the signing. This is why someone being coerced into signing to become a slave can speak out then and there, during the signing, and this is why there are witnesses."
"There are very few restrictions on what a slave may do. In fact, the oldest and most binding law on slavery proclaims that the slave is an extension of her owner and any action by the slave reflects on her owner. This transference of responsibility is fully encoded in our laws. Any action taken by the slave is interpreted as the action of her owner, and the owner is held accountable for any action committed by a slave. For example, if a slave would commit murder, her owner would be tried for murder. For nearly all laws in the commonwealth, with the exemption of some with regards to inheritance and the laws directly dealing with the subject of slavery, slave and owner are treated as a single natural person."
She takes on a more serious look.
"Slaves that betray their master are rare, since they effectively wield the same resources as their master. But in the case that this happens, the master has made a very bad life choice in taking that slave, and will most likely not survive the repurcusions of being betrayed by oneself. Those that do not want to be a slave anymore can ask their master to release them, though their master is under no obligation to do so. This is why becoming a slave in the first place must be a conscious choice made of one's own accord."
"I hope that this answers your questions, senator Harek."
She looks at the assembled senate before speaking in a clear voice.
"According to veolian law and culture, one can only become a slave by one's own choice.
No one is born a slave, as this goes against the free will of that individual to consciously choose to become a slave. If a child is brought into the world by a slave, that slave's owner bears the full responsibility for that child as if it were their own.
If someone is not a slave but a prospective owner desires to have them as such, it is legally required to ask the prospective slave whether they consent to become a slave. This consent is then given in the form of a ritualized signing of a consent contract. The signing of such a consent contract must be witnessed, with several requirements placed upon the witnesses to ensure that they are a neutral party. If a witness has doubts that the person is being coerced, they are legally allowed to take appropriate measure to prevent the signing. This is why someone being coerced into signing to become a slave can speak out then and there, during the signing, and this is why there are witnesses."
"There are very few restrictions on what a slave may do. In fact, the oldest and most binding law on slavery proclaims that the slave is an extension of her owner and any action by the slave reflects on her owner. This transference of responsibility is fully encoded in our laws. Any action taken by the slave is interpreted as the action of her owner, and the owner is held accountable for any action committed by a slave. For example, if a slave would commit murder, her owner would be tried for murder. For nearly all laws in the commonwealth, with the exemption of some with regards to inheritance and the laws directly dealing with the subject of slavery, slave and owner are treated as a single natural person."
She takes on a more serious look.
"Slaves that betray their master are rare, since they effectively wield the same resources as their master. But in the case that this happens, the master has made a very bad life choice in taking that slave, and will most likely not survive the repurcusions of being betrayed by oneself. Those that do not want to be a slave anymore can ask their master to release them, though their master is under no obligation to do so. This is why becoming a slave in the first place must be a conscious choice made of one's own accord."
"I hope that this answers your questions, senator Harek."
Senator Harek » Tue May 19, 2015 7:19 am
"Thank you Dear Chancellor Nehket Aeka for this explanation.
I would like to hear also from other worlds were slavery is allowed about their culture and regulations regarding slaves."
Senator Harek looks to Senator Ardios Eldrilith.
I would like to hear also from other worlds were slavery is allowed about their culture and regulations regarding slaves."
Senator Harek looks to Senator Ardios Eldrilith.
((OOC: 2 posts collapsed))
Nehket Aeka » Tue May 19, 2015 8:21 am
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Nehket Aeka - PC
((OOC: Note that Deominius also allows slavery, and have done so forever. I hope that Mercury finds the time to post with them as well.))
Senator Harek » Tue May 19, 2015 8:10 pm
((OOC: Note: I am going for PC interaction.))
Nehket Aeka » Sun May 24, 2015 9:07 pm
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Nehket Aeka - PC
"Senator", the chancellor replied sternly as she looks at Harek, "that is not a question. Those worlds have had their moment to elaborate on their position at the start of this discussion. They opted not to do so."
She looks at the Praetorian and Deominian delegations
"That being said, I do agree that it would be better for this discussion if other worlds that will be impacted by these ideas state their position on the topic. I suggest we allow some more time for the Praetorian empire and the Rising Suns of Deominius to formulate an answer, if they will, to senator Harek's implicit question whether they are willing to elaborate on their position."
"While they do so, I have a few questions of my own."
"First off, a question for senator Harek. Senator, in your explanation you state that your people have studied the physical and mental consequences of slavery. During my discussions with senator Tassar we concluded that no actual scientific studies have been done on the topic. I think I am not alone when I say that it would be very interesting to see the results of actual research on the topic according to a rigorous and culturally unbiased research method.
Senator Harek, could you elaborate on the kinds of research that have been done by your world, and maybe share with the rest of the senate the relevant papers and reports?"
"Secondly, a question for senator Doshima. You make an appeal to the moral context of the Astrian culture, and based on that you claim that anyone who owns slaves is less capable of being aware of the wishes of their property. You state that owning another being of some species places them and their whole species on the same level as cattle.
Veolians do not believe there are 'slave races' and 'master races' as seems to be implied in your claim that owning a slave of a certain race makes one view that race as a lesser race. In fact, the number of veolian slaves is larger than the number of twi'lek slaves, and those two groups make up one-third of the total number of slaves. What you effectively claim is that we view ourselves as cattle, and that we are an insult to ourselves. Yet we view neither ourselves, nor any other sentient race as cattle.
My question is this: How do you explain the fact that we have this many veolian slaves within the framework of the Astrian standards you superimpose on our culture?"
((OOC: This discussion has been standing still for a whole week now. Let's keep it rolling!
I am going to leave one extra week to hopefully see some answers on Harek's implicit question. If not, I plan on continuing the discussion -- I do not want to get stuck in the 'we await an answer' -> 'other player does not answer' cycle.))
She looks at the Praetorian and Deominian delegations
"That being said, I do agree that it would be better for this discussion if other worlds that will be impacted by these ideas state their position on the topic. I suggest we allow some more time for the Praetorian empire and the Rising Suns of Deominius to formulate an answer, if they will, to senator Harek's implicit question whether they are willing to elaborate on their position."
"While they do so, I have a few questions of my own."
"First off, a question for senator Harek. Senator, in your explanation you state that your people have studied the physical and mental consequences of slavery. During my discussions with senator Tassar we concluded that no actual scientific studies have been done on the topic. I think I am not alone when I say that it would be very interesting to see the results of actual research on the topic according to a rigorous and culturally unbiased research method.
Senator Harek, could you elaborate on the kinds of research that have been done by your world, and maybe share with the rest of the senate the relevant papers and reports?"
"Secondly, a question for senator Doshima. You make an appeal to the moral context of the Astrian culture, and based on that you claim that anyone who owns slaves is less capable of being aware of the wishes of their property. You state that owning another being of some species places them and their whole species on the same level as cattle.
Veolians do not believe there are 'slave races' and 'master races' as seems to be implied in your claim that owning a slave of a certain race makes one view that race as a lesser race. In fact, the number of veolian slaves is larger than the number of twi'lek slaves, and those two groups make up one-third of the total number of slaves. What you effectively claim is that we view ourselves as cattle, and that we are an insult to ourselves. Yet we view neither ourselves, nor any other sentient race as cattle.
My question is this: How do you explain the fact that we have this many veolian slaves within the framework of the Astrian standards you superimpose on our culture?"
((OOC: This discussion has been standing still for a whole week now. Let's keep it rolling!
I am going to leave one extra week to hopefully see some answers on Harek's implicit question. If not, I plan on continuing the discussion -- I do not want to get stuck in the 'we await an answer' -> 'other player does not answer' cycle.))
Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima » Fri May 29, 2015 1:01 pm
"I hope you will pardon me for answering your question with a question, Chancellor.
How many of those Veolian slaves are Hemet Veolians? And how many have come from the noble families your people hold in such high esteem?
What percentage of the slaves are owned by Hemet Veolians?
Somehow I doubt that there are many Hemet Veolian nobles owned by regular Veolians or Twi'leks of a low social standing, not to mention those low financial standings. The inequality in that seems rather obvious to me. Unless, of course, you have evidence that this isn't the case."
How many of those Veolian slaves are Hemet Veolians? And how many have come from the noble families your people hold in such high esteem?
What percentage of the slaves are owned by Hemet Veolians?
Somehow I doubt that there are many Hemet Veolian nobles owned by regular Veolians or Twi'leks of a low social standing, not to mention those low financial standings. The inequality in that seems rather obvious to me. Unless, of course, you have evidence that this isn't the case."
Nehket Aeka » Fri May 29, 2015 3:02 pm
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Nehket Aeka - PC
"Senator, you deflect a question that could shed some light on the Astrian stance on slavery with a question that is only partially related to the matter at hand.", the chancellor looked at Kachiso, "Though I will answer your question, if only to point out the fallacy of it, I do still expect you to answer my question as well -- this discussion only works if both parties are willing to answer questions."
"You ask how many of those veolian slaves are hemet veolians. Roughly half actually. It is felt that hemet veolians are superior extensions of oneself. And all hemet veolians hail from noble families, so every single hemet veolian slave comes from a noble family. Of course, befitting their station, these individuals usually have severe demands before they are willing to sign a slave contract."
"Next, you ask what percentage of slaves is owned by Hemet Veolians.
As you well know there is a severe tax on slavery in the Commonwealth to prevent people from owning slaves if they do not have the means to support those slaves. Since these taxes are about twice the cost of comfortably maintaining a slave, only those with significant financial means can even think of supporting a slave. I feel that you are attempting to create a form of perceived inequality purely based on the fact that nobles have greater financial means.
Furthermore, you attempt to skew this perception of inequality even further by placing part of this imbalance of equality on the fact that no twi'lek have slaves. As is well known, the larger part of the twi'lek population does not approve of slavery, and as such they do not own slaves. Now you are claiming that there is inequality because they have no slaves...
To answer the question, about 98% of slaves are owned by nobles. And this comparison is about as meaningful as a hypothetical comparison stating that there is inequality in the Astrian Colonial Authority because the population with cybernetics greatly outweighs the population without cybernetics, which clearly shows that the Astrian people view those without cybernetics as inferior. A comparison which I do not support, by the way."
"You ask how many of those veolian slaves are hemet veolians. Roughly half actually. It is felt that hemet veolians are superior extensions of oneself. And all hemet veolians hail from noble families, so every single hemet veolian slave comes from a noble family. Of course, befitting their station, these individuals usually have severe demands before they are willing to sign a slave contract."
"Next, you ask what percentage of slaves is owned by Hemet Veolians.
As you well know there is a severe tax on slavery in the Commonwealth to prevent people from owning slaves if they do not have the means to support those slaves. Since these taxes are about twice the cost of comfortably maintaining a slave, only those with significant financial means can even think of supporting a slave. I feel that you are attempting to create a form of perceived inequality purely based on the fact that nobles have greater financial means.
Furthermore, you attempt to skew this perception of inequality even further by placing part of this imbalance of equality on the fact that no twi'lek have slaves. As is well known, the larger part of the twi'lek population does not approve of slavery, and as such they do not own slaves. Now you are claiming that there is inequality because they have no slaves...
To answer the question, about 98% of slaves are owned by nobles. And this comparison is about as meaningful as a hypothetical comparison stating that there is inequality in the Astrian Colonial Authority because the population with cybernetics greatly outweighs the population without cybernetics, which clearly shows that the Astrian people view those without cybernetics as inferior. A comparison which I do not support, by the way."
Senator Odakim V of the Rising Suns of Deominius » Fri May 29, 2015 5:51 pm
"The Rising Suns of Deominius have a long standing tradition of voluntary slavery stemming from the honourable traditions of our ancestors who built some of the largest and oldest monuments on our world.
The new slaves are born as slaves voluntarily and in some cases voluntarily appointed by government officials in accordance with the needs of the state, and they are then volunteered into various labour projects. Here they learn valuable hard-labour skills through education by the Fast-moving Line Of Guidance.
Our voluntary slaves, though they generally die quite young, are deeply appreciated for the benefits they provide for my personal comfort and the general aesthetics of our planet, and we would be heartbroken if the Union were to institute legislation that would prevent them from voluntarily sacrificing their lives for these most glorious goals.
I think perhaps Senator Harek and his compatriots simply do not appreciate just how amazing the buildings these voluntary slaves build in my honour are, and I would invite them to come visit Deominius to enjoy them!"
The new slaves are born as slaves voluntarily and in some cases voluntarily appointed by government officials in accordance with the needs of the state, and they are then volunteered into various labour projects. Here they learn valuable hard-labour skills through education by the Fast-moving Line Of Guidance.
Our voluntary slaves, though they generally die quite young, are deeply appreciated for the benefits they provide for my personal comfort and the general aesthetics of our planet, and we would be heartbroken if the Union were to institute legislation that would prevent them from voluntarily sacrificing their lives for these most glorious goals.
I think perhaps Senator Harek and his compatriots simply do not appreciate just how amazing the buildings these voluntary slaves build in my honour are, and I would invite them to come visit Deominius to enjoy them!"
Senator Harek » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:50 pm
"The Hiocan Society is a refuge place for slaves. We have quite a big human population which were mostly slaves in Mandalorian territory. The Mandalorians are quite barbaric and slaves are treated bad. They are physically abused and are belittled. This is a direct example of why slavery should be banned. In other cases it is harder to detect the negative effects of slavery and that is why we have done research.
Every slave that wants asylum within the Hiocan Society has to undergo various tests for application, these included a full physical and mental investigation. Here you see that the deprivation of free will have a strong influence on the mental state of the slave. They get depressed and desperate, even slaves from the Veolian Commonwealth which are treated well. Our research methods are based on logic and reason. But if you want to know more details I can provide them."
((OOC: I am not so good in coming up with fictional research, so hopefully we can work with that.))
Every slave that wants asylum within the Hiocan Society has to undergo various tests for application, these included a full physical and mental investigation. Here you see that the deprivation of free will have a strong influence on the mental state of the slave. They get depressed and desperate, even slaves from the Veolian Commonwealth which are treated well. Our research methods are based on logic and reason. But if you want to know more details I can provide them."
((OOC: I am not so good in coming up with fictional research, so hopefully we can work with that.))
Senator Danar Tassar » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:01 pm
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Senator Danar Tassar - PC
- Location: Unity
“We of the Consensus would like to point out the following problem when we follow the path of free will as guideline in this discussion:
Senator Nehket, you just explained how the Veolian slaves are an extension of the person they are working for. Therefore isn’t it true that the Veolian slaves have a strong availability of free will? In fact, isn’t it true that the slaves have more free will than the Veolian commoner? Since the slave can do as he or she likes as long as this is within the benefit of the owner, while the lowest commoner just has to do what his local leader tells him to?
Senator Harek, you bring free will into the discussion, and a research project which shows how a deprivation of free will reacts on the mental state. However how about the free will of the common people? Most civilians have a relative lack of free will. They have to pay taxes, need obey the laws, rules and regulations and are burdened by all kinds of contracts which forces them to follow certain schedules and schemes.
Obviously these limitations on the people should have a negative impact on their mental health as well. Are you implying that we of the Union should promote anarchy in order to improve the people’s mental health by supporting maximal free will?”
Senator Nehket, you just explained how the Veolian slaves are an extension of the person they are working for. Therefore isn’t it true that the Veolian slaves have a strong availability of free will? In fact, isn’t it true that the slaves have more free will than the Veolian commoner? Since the slave can do as he or she likes as long as this is within the benefit of the owner, while the lowest commoner just has to do what his local leader tells him to?
Senator Harek, you bring free will into the discussion, and a research project which shows how a deprivation of free will reacts on the mental state. However how about the free will of the common people? Most civilians have a relative lack of free will. They have to pay taxes, need obey the laws, rules and regulations and are burdened by all kinds of contracts which forces them to follow certain schedules and schemes.
Obviously these limitations on the people should have a negative impact on their mental health as well. Are you implying that we of the Union should promote anarchy in order to improve the people’s mental health by supporting maximal free will?”
Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:40 pm
The Astrian Senator looked surprised at Senator Tassar for a moment, before turning back to Senator Nehket.
"My apologies for failing to answer your question, Chancellor. I merely wished to gain some additional insight on the matter.
To answer your question. You said one of the fundamental principals of Veolian culture is to strive to improve oneself. By becoming a slave these Veolians create the illusion of self improvement. The ones of whom they become slaves would eagerly encourage this to reduce competition. A manipulation that prevents your people from actually raising themselves. A manipulation done by those in power to maintain or improve their power.
If to improve oneself is so important to Veolian culture, Chancellor, then could you tell me how a slave would improve themselves."
He turned to the Teprogrenaian Senator next.
"Senator Tassar, could you explain how you view civilians? I ask because, from what you say, it almost seems like you think the only reason people obey laws, rules and regulations is because they have to. Has it occurred to you that many people have the intelligence to see the reasons why they were established and the benefits of following them? Not just to themselves but to others as well. Is that not one of the greatest acts of free will, Senator?"
"My apologies for failing to answer your question, Chancellor. I merely wished to gain some additional insight on the matter.
To answer your question. You said one of the fundamental principals of Veolian culture is to strive to improve oneself. By becoming a slave these Veolians create the illusion of self improvement. The ones of whom they become slaves would eagerly encourage this to reduce competition. A manipulation that prevents your people from actually raising themselves. A manipulation done by those in power to maintain or improve their power.
If to improve oneself is so important to Veolian culture, Chancellor, then could you tell me how a slave would improve themselves."
He turned to the Teprogrenaian Senator next.
"Senator Tassar, could you explain how you view civilians? I ask because, from what you say, it almost seems like you think the only reason people obey laws, rules and regulations is because they have to. Has it occurred to you that many people have the intelligence to see the reasons why they were established and the benefits of following them? Not just to themselves but to others as well. Is that not one of the greatest acts of free will, Senator?"
Nehket Aeka » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:50 pm
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Nehket Aeka - PC
"Thank you for your answer, senator Doshima. Though I must say I am a bit confused by it.
I agree that additional insight is of great importance. Which is why I had hoped to understand your, admittedly passionate, plea for manumission as it puts forward the notion that owning a slave changes one's opinion of that slave's species. Your plea appears to be based on this notion, the notion that it is not possible to see a species as equal because a member of that species is a slave.
To gain further understanding of this idea, I explained that there are a great number of veolian slaves, which seems to me to be in stark contrast with your notion of how we view species from which we select slaves. As I understand it, the notion epxressed in your plea indicates that we are to find our own species 'cattle'. I fear that I have not expressed my question well enough. I intended to ask you how the large number of Veolian slaves could be explained through Astrian cultural values.
Your answer elaborates on how the situation can be explained through applying Veolian cultural values as you observe from an Astrian point of view. Yet the question of how this apparent contrast between your notion and the actual situation can be explained remains unanswered..."
"That being asked, let me first answer your question. After all, this is a cross-examination.
You ask how it is possible for a slave to improve themselves. Improving oneself is a principle with many aspects. A great part of this is the perfection of an art. Reaching the pinnacle of one's capabilities requires large amounts of time and a dedication to the art. Many slaves have taken up at least one form of art or specialism, and because they do not have to carry the usual burdens placed upon both commoners and nobles alike they can dedicate a large amount of time to the perfection of their chosen art form.
The Veolian Commonwealth has a long history of dance, and many historically acclaimed dancers were slaves, as well as a great number of poets, some of which are read at every primary school on Mirda."
((OOC: I feel a little bit guilty for having to come up with all these facts on slaves during the discussion. I'd prefer to have all this worked out in advance and on the wiki for everyone to see -- unfortunately my time does not permit me to do all of this.
I think everyone should take this as a compliment, as the discussion is taking off in a major way ^_^))
I agree that additional insight is of great importance. Which is why I had hoped to understand your, admittedly passionate, plea for manumission as it puts forward the notion that owning a slave changes one's opinion of that slave's species. Your plea appears to be based on this notion, the notion that it is not possible to see a species as equal because a member of that species is a slave.
To gain further understanding of this idea, I explained that there are a great number of veolian slaves, which seems to me to be in stark contrast with your notion of how we view species from which we select slaves. As I understand it, the notion epxressed in your plea indicates that we are to find our own species 'cattle'. I fear that I have not expressed my question well enough. I intended to ask you how the large number of Veolian slaves could be explained through Astrian cultural values.
Your answer elaborates on how the situation can be explained through applying Veolian cultural values as you observe from an Astrian point of view. Yet the question of how this apparent contrast between your notion and the actual situation can be explained remains unanswered..."
"That being asked, let me first answer your question. After all, this is a cross-examination.
You ask how it is possible for a slave to improve themselves. Improving oneself is a principle with many aspects. A great part of this is the perfection of an art. Reaching the pinnacle of one's capabilities requires large amounts of time and a dedication to the art. Many slaves have taken up at least one form of art or specialism, and because they do not have to carry the usual burdens placed upon both commoners and nobles alike they can dedicate a large amount of time to the perfection of their chosen art form.
The Veolian Commonwealth has a long history of dance, and many historically acclaimed dancers were slaves, as well as a great number of poets, some of which are read at every primary school on Mirda."
((OOC: I feel a little bit guilty for having to come up with all these facts on slaves during the discussion. I'd prefer to have all this worked out in advance and on the wiki for everyone to see -- unfortunately my time does not permit me to do all of this.
I think everyone should take this as a compliment, as the discussion is taking off in a major way ^_^))
Nehket Aeka » Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:48 pm
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Nehket Aeka - PC
"To answer senator Danar Tassar's question to me: You are completely right, senator.
Slaves in the Veolian Commonwealth have, without fail, a large amount of influence and outrank most of the lower nobility. I would even hazard a guess that they are more free than most of the Hiocans, who are all bound to law and logic, wherease veolian slaves are only bound by the strictures upon their masters."
Slaves in the Veolian Commonwealth have, without fail, a large amount of influence and outrank most of the lower nobility. I would even hazard a guess that they are more free than most of the Hiocans, who are all bound to law and logic, wherease veolian slaves are only bound by the strictures upon their masters."
Senator Harek » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:22 pm
"The Hiocan Society does not want Anarchy. Senator Danar Tassar, for everything these is a balance between the one and the other. We all take care for each other in a society so that we have a good life. For that we have to partially give up our freedom and have obligations. But if we do not share the burdens then some people will completely free and other not.
Being bound by the strict rules of their masters is the main problem slaves have. It depends on the goodness and mood of the master. As this can changes on a whim or slowly over the years, being a slaves is not always a careless world. It is not a job or relation you can quit."
Being bound by the strict rules of their masters is the main problem slaves have. It depends on the goodness and mood of the master. As this can changes on a whim or slowly over the years, being a slaves is not always a careless world. It is not a job or relation you can quit."
Senator Danar Tassar » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:04 am
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Senator Danar Tassar - PC
- Location: Unity
“We of the Consensus believe that in his last statement, Harek displays the core problem with slaves. A master or a boss can be a good or a bad guy. A master or a boss can change its opinion over time. But where an employee can decide to no longer serve its boss, a slave cannot decide to no longer serve its master.”