Fwurg

[Brend]

It occurred to me that we have a bit a weird situation in the rules right now: the construction of an outpost can be done with in your home system, but the moment the outpost of finished, and any upgrades in need to be shipped there. The same happens with the construction and upgrading of Holonet Relay Stations: the necessary goods just teleport over there, even if the sector you're constructing them in is 4 away.

The problem here isn't the teleporting per se, but the discrepancy between when it can be done, and when it can not be done. Terraformation always needs to be shipped there (for historical reasons); outposts and settlement may only teleport the initial project, but upgrades need to be shipped; and finally holonets and all other things can be teleported regardless of distance or local circumstances.

After some verbal sparring with Chriz where I first tried to solve this with using trade fleets, we came up with an intersting idea: the Construction Fleet. In this post I present the first draft of this idea for discussion. I have elaborated some of the ideas, so this post does not represent Chriz opinion.

Deep Space Construction

Deep space construction is the construction of any structure outside of your home sector. If you have a system or outpost in the sector, you do not need a construction fleet. Any project that requires goods to be deployed somewhere qualifies as deep space construction. Projects requires only can be outsourced to smaller contractors.

Using Construction Fleet

A construction fleet can be used to do construction work outside of your sector. Each construction fleet has a cargo capacity that can be used in the same way as a trade fleet. For the Construction Fleet to do its work, the necessary materials need to be shipped to the correct sector this can be done with the Construction Fleet itself, optionally assisted by other Construction Fleets or Trade Fleets.

Deep space construction projects need to have an assigned Construction Fleet to make progress. And a Construction Fleet can only be assigned to one project at a time.

(To discuss: "Note that you are allowed to use your construction fleet as a trade fleet, allowing you to get a little extra capacity in emergencies.")

Supporting Construction Fleets

A system can support two construction fleets for free. Construction Fleets can be supported by Open Market zones just like Trade Fleets or Survey Fleets.

A starting world starts with 2 Construction Fleets of 200 capacity.

Constructing & Upgrading Construction Fleets

A new Construction Fleets costs 100 + 500 and has a base capacity of 100. To start a new Construction Fleets, you need to have an Open Market Zone to support it.

A Construction Fleets may be upgraded any number of times. Each upgrade adds an additional 100 and costs 100 + 500 .

Construction Fleets upgrades are subject to the completion limit in the same way trade fleets are.

Discussion

This proposal neatly removes the teleporting goods abstraction, but it does also put a limitation on the number of 'deep space construction' projects a world can undertake at any time. I expect this to lead to some amount of discussion here.

The exact costs of the construction fleets are to be determined, but they should definitely be higher than a trade fleet: the fleet offers trade capacity and carries the necessary gear and ships for actual construction work. The note about the Construction Fleet offering trade capacity in the normal way is my way of saying: look, they're just that good! They do actually offer the trade capacity in addition to the necessary equipement. I think it is a nice touch, and makes them just a little less awkward while you're not doing deep space construction.

[Chriz]

I support the idea of construction fleets, although I do have the idea that fwurg would be doing totally fine without them. I don't know what others think about them but in my mind I am still weighting the current level of abstraction against the added detail.

I do support the idea of getting everything on the same level. A special project that requires products or special products on a location that does not have the infrastructure for a normal trade fleet would require such a construction fleet to deliver and use it.

I do believe that this could work for terraformation, holonets, outposts, etc.

I am not sure about the additional 500 , but this is a balancing issue for later. However I believe that if we allow the construction fleet to function as a normal trade fleet as well this will be one of the reasons why the additional cost would be so high. If we don't allow it, I believe the cost could be lower.

[Brend]

On the detail level: I tried to find a way that works on the same detail level as the trade fleets and the survey fleets. My main problem is the inconsistencies in the current abstraction. Luckily players will only have to quickly list the construction fleet with the deep space project in their turn report, so there isn't much extra bookkeeping involved. That's also why I propose to allow them to be used for trade as well; that way they'll just be a little boost for players that aren't using them right now (which is especially nice for starting worlds).

[Elmer]

First, I like the idea of assigning some assets to get your stuff to the required sector, it feels more natural over the current teleporting mechanics. But if I understand correctly, with this proposal you start with 2 construction fleets, which both can be assigned to a construction project and a trade route at the same time, right? This is currently unclear to me.

When a construction fleet can both do a construction assignment for a project and a trade assignment over a trade route at the same time, then it feels more like an upgrade to trade fleets to me, and I think we can solve this as an upgrade. But how does this work with trade capacity? Do you calculate how much capacity you require for the trade and the project separately, add those to determine how much capacity the construction fleet requires, or can you use the capacity for both trade and for construction?

When a construction fleet can either do a construction assignment for a project or a trade assignment over a trade route, I don't see the added value of the construction fleet over a trade fleet. You construct a trade fleet which can be assigned to a construction project either way, with or without the construction fleet mechanics. And when you have no construction projects, it trades.

In conclusion: I think we can solve this by assigning a trade fleet to a deep space construction project. However, people always need trade fleets and don't have the zones to support them, so how about giving a trade fleet the option to be upgraded towards a construction fleet, in which case it can do both trading and construction.

[Brend]

First, I like the idea of assigning some assets to get your stuff to the required sector, it feels more natural over the current teleporting mechanics. But if I understand correctly, with this proposal you start with 2 construction fleets, which both can be assigned to a construction project and a trade route at the same time, right?

No. A construction fleet can only do one job at any given time. So, in any turn, it can only do one of:

• Works on a project; the construction fleet may transports cargo to the project to use as materials.
• Flies a trade route; the construction fleet acts as a normal trade fleet.

In both cases capacity calculation is done in the same way as for trade fleets. So if you are using your fleet to build a Holonet Relay, your Construction Fleet will need enough capacity to carry the to the sector you are building it in.

(Would you mind PMing me a quote of the sentences that lead to this confusion? That would help me write better posts.)

Note that the whole 'can act as a trade fleet' power is not even necessary for the Construction Fleet to make sense.

When a construction fleet can both do a construction assignment for a project and a trade assignment over a trade route at the same time, then it feels more like an upgrade to trade fleets to me, and I think we can solve this as an upgrade.

But starting worlds need to be able to do deep space projects immediately, since they should be able to build and upgrade Holonet Relays. Hence the choice to make a new type of fleet that can be supported in addition to the normal trade fleets.

When a construction fleet can either do a construction assignment for a project or a trade assignment over a trade route, I don't see the added value of the construction fleet over a trade fleet. You construct a trade fleet which can be assigned to a construction project either way, with or without the construction fleet mechanics. And when you have no construction projects, it trades.

However, people always need trade fleets and don't have the zones to support them, so how about giving a trade fleet the option to be upgraded towards a construction fleet, in which case it can do both trading and construction.

I agree that people are already stretched very thin on the amount of trade fleets they need: 1 trade fleets equals 1 trade partner. Taking away trade fleets to do other things equals not being able to trade with someone. This is something that is counter-productive, as you yourself already point out :)

That is why I came up with the idea of having a separate set of construction fleets. They won't reduce the amount of trade partners a world can have, and will allow any world to immediately start doing deep space construction from the start of the game.

In conclusion: I think we can solve this by assigning a trade fleet to a deep space construction project.

From a rules-perspective this would cut into the trade potential of a world due to reasons described above. From a fluff-perspective this doesn't make sense, since a Construction Fleet comes with all kinds of specialised construction equipment: hyperspace stabilisation scaffolding, impulse alignment arrays, repulsor-based cargo platforms, etc. A A Trade Fleet can just fly somewhere and dock and have the space port unload all goods, a Construction Fleet is much more.

If the 'can act as a trade fleet' aspect of the Construction Fleets is something that is deemed undesirable, we can remove it. In that case it is best to handle the Construction Fleets as if they were a special kind of fleet next to Survey Fleets.

[Elmer]

After a small discussion with Brend, we discovered 3 relevant scenarios, which I will explain here. I also include my new point of view, which not necessarily include the opinion of Brend.

Scenarios

Scenario 1:

a player never constructs any deep space construction projects.

Scenario 2:

a player constructs incidentally a deep space construction.

Scenario 3:

a player constructs many deep space construction projects.


With the construction fleet as proposed, the scenarios work as follows:

Scenario 1: The mechanics of deep space construction are of no interest to the player as long he does not have to pay extra for no reason. So practically, the player gets 2 free trade fleets.

Scenario 2: As the player only requires the construction fleet for such an incidental moment, having a whole construction fleet is rather overdone to the player. However, removing one of his current trade in order to commit a trade fleet to the deep space construction has a large negative impact on the player, so he wishes to avoid this situation. Either by building a fleet which he later uses for more trades, or by upgrading a current trade fleet. As long as the costs don't exceed the benefits for this incidental project. With the proposed rules, this player also practically gets 2 free trade fleets.

Scenario 3: For the player it matters little if he has to commit a trade fleet or a construction fleet to the deep space construction project. He has to commit assets which won't be used for other things. The proposed rules are basically meant for this player.

proposal

So in short: although the proposal is to have a construction fleet which also can be used as a trade fleet, the practical use would probably be free trade fleets which also can be used as a construction fleet. My proposal to solve this is two way: First, make construction fleets important enough so you actually need it. This means that not only the initial project, but also the upgrades of deep space construction projects require the use of a construction fleet. Second, make the construction fleet for deep space construction only. This way it can be much cheaper to construct or upgrade a construction fleet.

With this, I propose that players start with a single construction fleet though, as I think that in the beginning you don't really need one. Or actually I have something better: Players start with 0 construction fleets, however, the first fleet don't require an open market zone. This means that when a player wants to do deep space construction he can relative cheaply build his first fleet to do so, and is not really hindered by the lack of such a fleet, but players don't have a fleet while they don't need one.

Elaboration on my proposal:

The current deep space construction projects:

• Holonet relay: Early game
• Hyperspace monitoring grid: Mid game
• Space habitat: late game
• Outpost: late game
• Settlement: late game
• Hyperspace lane: late game

As you can see, a starting player only requires a construction fleet for holonet-relays and maybe the hyperspace monitoring grid. Deep space construction really starts late game for most players. As far I know, out of 9 players, 4 have holonet relays (Veolian Commonwealth, IO, ACA, Sundarian Federation). 1 has the hyperspace monitoring grid (Praetorian Empire). 1 has a colony (Praetorian Empire)

So 5 out of 9 players actually required a construction fleet, the other 4 not yet so far. I think this justifies that an economy world does not have to start with a construction fleet, as long as the creation of one won't really hinder new economies. Especially since the Praetorian Empire and ACA started deep space construction mid-late game as I remember correctly (I don't know when the ACA actually started with their holonet-relays.)

[Gerben]

I believe that this proposal (Elmer's) is reasonable... it would solve some discrepancies and issues within the current game mechanics ( read teleporting goods) without making things needlessly complex.

[Brend]

Elmer makes a fine analysis, and I am inclined to agree with all points save one: I think that starting worlds should have 1 Construction Fleet. I do not want to exclude starting worlds from building Holonet Relays until they spend some amount of resources on their first fleet.

I have updated the proposal with the new insights and some small tweaks:

Deep Space Construction

Deep space construction is the construction of any structure outside of your home sector. If you have an independent system (i.e. home system or independent settlement) in the sector, you do not need a construction fleet. Any project that requires goods to be deployed somewhere qualifies as deep space construction. Projects requires only can be outsourced to smaller contractors.

Note that this also goes for things like

Using Construction Fleet

A construction fleet can be used to do construction work outside of your sector. Each construction fleet has a cargo capacity that is used to ship the construction goods to the construction site. For the Construction Fleet to do its work, the necessary materials need to be shipped to the correct sector this can be done with the Construction Fleet itself, optionally assisted by other Construction Fleets or Trade Fleets.

Deep space construction projects need to have an assigned Construction Fleet to make progress. And a Construction Fleet can only be assigned to one project at a time.

Supporting Construction Fleets

A system can support two construction fleets for free. Construction Fleets can be supported by Open Market zones just like Trade Fleets or Survey Fleets.

A starting world starts with 1 Construction Fleets of 300 capacity.

Constructing & Upgrading Construction Fleets

A new Construction Fleets costs 50 + 250 and has a base capacity of 100. To start a new Construction Fleets, you need to have an open support slot available, either the second system slot, or an Open Market Zone to support it.

A Construction Fleets may be upgraded any number of times. Each upgrade adds an additional 100 and costs 50 + 250 .

Construction Fleets upgrades are subject to the completion limit in the same way trade fleets are.

Because of these rules, we might want to consider the following changes as well:

• Holonet Universal Base Code Patch: Patching a base station can be done without a Construction Fleet as long as the goods can be transferred to the sector through the holonet.
• Terraformation: The same rules apply, though a Construction Fleet is not necessary if the process is applied through Generalized deployment and the other system is an independent system.
• Settlement: The final projects cost is increased by the cost of building a Construction Fleet up to 300 capacity

I also realize that we need a better definition of Deep Space construction, since there could be unclear situations. For example, the construction of a Space Elevator on a settlement world. I would say that that is Zone construction. But what about Lagrange Point Conduit Stations? And how about Megadome Cities on an Outpost, zone upgrade or deep space construction? There are more situations like these (terraformation comes to mind).

[Gerben]

Holonet Universal Base Code Patch: Patching a base station can be done without a Construction Fleet as long as the goods can be transferred to the sector through the holonet.

I agree, this seems like a good and reasonable solution

Terraformation: The same rules apply, though a Construction Fleet is not necessary if the process is applied through Generalized deployment and the other system is an independent system.

This would mean that Terraforming one's own system would require a construction fleet, where terraforming another system doesn't.. that seems like a level complexity we shouldn't want. Infact it seems reasonable to not use construction fleets for terraforming at all, since the process is localized (to the planet and its atmosphere) and thus in effect not very different from building or upgrading a zone.

Settlement: The final projects cost is increased by the cost of building a Construction Fleet up to 300 capacity

I agree.

I also realize that we need a better definition of Deep Space construction, since there could be unclear situations. For example, the construction of a Space Elevator on a settlement world. I would say that that is Zone construction. But what about Lagrange Point Conduit Stations? And how about Megadome Cities on an Outpost, zone upgrade or deep space construction? There are more situations like these (terraformation comes to mind).

I would say that anything directly into space.. i.e. encompasses orbital wide projects such as a Lagrange Point Conduit Station or Solar Wind Generation Array would be considered deep space construction, the same would hold for the construction of an outpost.

However the construction of Megadome Cities is a localised effect and would thus be considered a 'normal' construction project, under the same rules as terraforming a planet.

That's just my two cents.. what do you guys think?

[Brend]

Terraformation: The same rules apply, though a Construction Fleet is not necessary if the process is applied through Generalized deployment and the other system is an independent system.

This would mean that Terraforming one's own system would require a construction fleet, where terraforming another system doesn't.. that seems like a level complexity we shouldn't want. Infact it seems reasonable to not use construction fleets for terraforming at all, since the process is localized (to the planet and its atmosphere) and thus in effect not very different from building or upgrading a zone.

No it would not. Since your starting system is an independent system it will never require a Construction Fleet as per the Deep Space construction section which states: "If you have an independent system (i.e. home system or independent settlement) in the sector, you do not need a construction fleet."

[Brend]

After a short discussion, we decided to take the other route and explicitly determine per project wether it would need Construction Fleet assignment. As a guideline we used the following: If a project uses any special goods, does actual construction outside of the normal planetary sphere, or spans the whole of the planet, it is most likely deep space construction.

We used the following flags:

• Deep Space Construction → This project qualifies as deep space construction.
• Tax Only → The project qualifies as deep space construction, but it only requires and can thus be delegated to smaller contractors
• Normal construction → The project follows normal construction rules and limitations
• Exception → The project has an exceptional nature, see note

The list of all projects we could find:

• Crystals Processing Platforms Tax Only
• Extra-dimensional Particle Collectors Deep Space Construction
• Forward Supply Depot Normal construction
• Gasses Processing Platforms Tax Only
• Genealogical Archives Normal construction
• Genome Correctors Tax Only
• Harmonized Industrial Recycling Awareness Tax Only
• Holonet Relay Stations Deep Space Construction
• Holonet Universal Base Code Patch Deep Space Construction / Exception (2)
• Hyperspace Arrival Calibration Grid Normal construction
• Hyperspace Lanes Deep Space Construction
• Hyperspace Monitoring Grid Deep Space Construction
• Hyperspace Tracking Vessels Normal construction
• Industrial Recycling Facilities Normal construction
• Information Processing Platforms Tax Only
• Lagrange Point Conduit Stations Deep Space Construction
• Megadome Cities Deep Space Construction / Generalized Exception (1)
• Megadome Microclimate Interconnectivity Regulators Deep Space Construction
• Metals Processing Platforms Tax Only
• Organics Processing Platforms Tax Only
• Outpost Deep Space Construction + Ugrades Deep Space Construction
• Passive Hyperspace Scanning Array Normal construction
• Planet-Wide Waste Handling Infrastructure Tax Only
• Planetary Defence Grid Deep Space Construction
• Rare Elements Processing Platforms Tax Only
• Raw Material Refining Facilities Normal construction
• Same-sex Reproduction Catalysts Exception (3)
• Settlement Deep Space Construction + Final Project Deep Space Construction
• Solar Wind Generator Array Deep Space Construction
• Space Elevator Deep Space Construction
• Space Habitat Deep Space Construction
• Terraformation Deep Space Construction / Generalized Exception (1)
• Waste Material Post-processing Plant Tax Only

(1): With Generalized X tech no construction fleet necessary if the beneficiary system is an independent system.
(2): Holonet Base Code Patch on base Stations does not require a Construction Fleet if the can be brought there through the Holonet.
(3): We feel that this is not a construction project but more of a social project that requires stockpiling and handing out of goods, instead of building facilities.

If others agree, we propose to make the 'This project is a Deep Space construction...' line explicit on their pages. New projects can than be judged on their qualifications as they are designed.

[Brend]

This discussion has some relation to Rules vagueness: Special Projects and Completion Limit.

[Dragonmaster352]

quick question: When you would be constructing something with a Construction Fleet, does the capacity of the fleet and trade factor apply?

[Brend]

quick question: When you would be constructing something with a Construction Fleet, does the capacity of the fleet and trade factor apply?

The idea is that the construction fleet's capacity can be used to transport the construction goods to the site. The amount of goods it can transport is determined in the same way as if it were a trade fleet. So yes, it applies. However, you are free to use other means to get the goods to the location: you could use a trade fleet to fly the goods there, if have someone else fly them over. You could even have multiple construction fleets doing the transport work if you want.

Note that in the latest proposal the construction fleet can no longer be used as trade fleet, so the construction fleet capacity is purely functional for transporation of construtruction goods.

[Elmer]

I agree to take the road of using construction fleets for all kinds of space construction. I also approve of the special projects which require an construction fleet as stated in the list made by Brend.

About the list:
At first, I had my doubts about the exception(1) on megadome cities and terraformation, but then I realised that these projects are done on worlds anyway, and it is reasonable to assume that players want to remove construction fleet requirements on these two projects anyway.

The same-sex reproduction catalysts is indeed not so much as a special project as it is a tech which requires an upkeep in order to work. Much like an outpost or space habitat, which are also not special projects, but some kind of zones which require upkeep.

[Brend]

The same-sex reproduction catalysts is indeed not so much as a special project as it is a tech which requires an upkeep in order to work. Much like an outpost or space habitat, which are also not special projects, but some kind of zones which require upkeep.

It requires doing a project first though, which is why it was tricky to decide. But seeing how it is built upon a tax-only project and still feels like handing out stuff, we felt it easier to take this route.

As for exception(1), note that with the proposal for Completion Limitations I made, they still fall under zone construction completion limitations, and are thereby limited in the speed with which you can spam them.

[Stuiter]

I think with the new construction fleet and the completion rule, things happen less magically.

[Brend]

I take the 3-week silence as people having no more large issues to discuss.

I will make a single comprehensive proposal (combining "Teleporting" construction goods and Rules vagueness: Special Projects and Completion Limit) in the weekend of 2014-10-25.