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Dragonmaster352 · **Dragonmaster352** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:24 pm

I would like to say I disagree with brends idea here that the turn cost of techs doesn't get paid unless they get tax invested in them.

I believe that you should be allowed to additional costs, like taxes, in a single turn. (example: technology X costs 2000 (:tax)

and 5

, all 2000 (:tax)

are paid in the first turn of research)

There are currently no rules regarding this and I firmly believe that what brend suggests should NOT be made into a rule.

**Elmer** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:34 pm

I think that it should be at least a gentlemen agreement that we do not spend the (:turn)

till we spend actual (:tax)

. the reason is simple and already explained by Brend, if you can spend (:turn)

without spending (:tax)

, than everybody can start putting the (:turn)

in the technology the moment it exists. Which nullifies the whole idea of having to spend multiple (:turn)

on the tech.

The other way around though works differently: When you already have spend all the (:tax)

on the tech, than of course you only have to wait till you have spend enough (:turn)

.

Dragonmaster352, from your post I take it that you want to spend all required taxes in the first (:turn)

and than only want to wait till the research is ready? I see no problem with that.

Brend · **Brend** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:38 pm

I completely agreed with you that it shouldn't be made into a rule. I also fully agree that you should be able to put all the (:tax)

into a technology, and then just wait.

The only thing I adhere to is that if the other goods haven't all been fully put into the technology (so for example, 500 / 2000 (:tax)

), that the technology should not get a (:turn)

increase. I only do this because I do not want to get the feeling I am abusing the lack of rules in this area (so I try to spend at least 5 (:tax)

on a technology, though I usually aim much higher).

Elmer already explains why I adhere to that guideline very well.

**Chriz** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:44 pm

The system is a abstraction. Research requires time to be done and taxes as funding. If there is no funding you can not make any progress.
If all the funding has been allocated, you only have to wait for the research to be completed. I agree that it does not require any actual rules, but it is a good guideline.

**Fedor** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:59 pm

What you could also do is having levels of funding necessary to advance (:turns)

.

Say the research takes 10 (:turns)

, then it has to have 1/10th of the total funding to progress to 1/10 (:turn)

required, and so on.

Example:
I want to research Passive Hyperspace Monitoring, this research takes 2000 (:tax)

and 4

.
I have to invest a minimum of 500 (:tax)

before the research can proceed to 1/4 (:turn)

, 1000

for 2/4

.
This prevents putting 0 (:tax)

in a tech and having all the turns just tick till completion as well as only putting 5 (:tax)

per turn, and you can still put all the taxes in and then let it tick.

This however does not reflect the different amount of funding required at different stages of technological research and I personally am fine with people putting 5 (:tax)

into a tech per (:turn)

. Furthermore the current system isn't being abused so I'm not sure we need to change it. I had the idea so I'm posting it here for discussion.

Dragonmaster352 · **Dragonmaster352** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:51 pm

Ok, that is acceptable. I wanted to make sure that something like this wouldn't cause trouble.

Just to be clear, I believe it should be possible to pay the full amount of (:tax)

for a technology at any point during it's research. Of course you don't complete the research until all costs (time and tax) are fully paid. You can justify this IC with loans, payment on delivery, advance payment, etc. Holding up the research when you don't pay is also a possibility, though I think it's a bit weird.

Brend · **Brend** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:56 pm

Dragonmaster352 wrote:Just to be clear, I believe it should be possible to pay the full amount of for a technology at any point during it's research. Of course you don't complete the research until all costs (time and tax) are fully paid. You can justify this IC with loans, payment on delivery, advance payment, etc. Holding up the research when you don't pay is also a possibility, though I think it's a bit weird.

The logical conclusion of this is that the research time is a moot point, as everyone starts 'research' on all technologies immediately after they are added to the game...

Brend · **Brend** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:40 pm

More thinking on this topic has me a bit against the "Just to be clear, I believe it should be possible to pay the full amount of (:tax)

for a technology at any point during it's research." Especially since you claim that "You can justify this IC with loans, payment on delivery, advance payment, etc."

The (:tax)

is flow. The whole idea is that you can't defer payment with loans, payment on delivery or whatever. The amounts of money required for a simple technology (e.g. 500 (:tax)

) are staggeringly large. You can't just loan that, if that's possible, I would love to be able to do the same with my zones: pay multiple zones up front and not be limited by the completion limit...

I have no problem with paying everything and then waiting out the turns, but I think I will call shenanigans when you start ticking turns without putting in payments (or at least a big starting payment to show commitment).

**Chriz** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:07 pm

The

and materials invested can be seen as investments for research equipment and infrastructure. That is why it is logical that you need the (:tax)

to advance the research in (:turns)

.

Since equipment and such are not really flow it is possible to invest all the tax in (:turn)

1 of the research and wait for the other 3 (:turns)

to let the researchers perform the research.

The other way around does not work since the investments are needed to make progress. It is not possible to start without investment and put all the (:tax)

in at the 4th (:turn)

and final turn.

Dragonmaster352 · **Dragonmaster352** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:41 pm

I get your point that, from an IC perspective, it's a technical impossibility.

OOC, however, there is nothing that forbids you to pay the (:tax)

cost of research at any point during research.

Brend · **Brend** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:57 pm

Dragonmaster352 wrote:OOC, however, there is nothing that forbids you to pay the cost of research at any point during research.

Which is exactly why I adhere to the guideline laid out above ^_^

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RE: Turn 113 (29/07/2013 - 04/08/2013)