Fwurg

[Brend]

I also wanted a different incentive than just enabling same-sex reproduction, to make it attractive for my own faction.

Fair enough.

In this case that would be cybernetics on a cellular level, as this technology would allow the creation non-organic based cells (cells made of metals instead of carbohydrate compounds)

I'm not sure about this on a technological level... It seems to have a lot more implications than 'cybernetics on a cellular level'. Besides. I don't think you can just add 'non-organics materials' and get cybernetic cells; I think that requires a more involved method than just cramming materials in there. Organics cells are very adept at breaking things down and converting it into the organic materials they want to use.

I think the fact that your world already has full acces to and infallable same-sex reproduction technology available just as fluff makes the whole point of same-sex reproduction a bit moot... Don't get me wrong; I like this idea, but I think that you can potentially use this as a massive jumping board into all kinds of cybernetic improvements.


And I can tell you that the Veolians are going to steer clear of this. They don't very much like cybernetics, and having your child depend on technology for its continued existence is something that they will try to avoid at all costs. They have even offered to fund research to help the Astrian's get rid of their dependency on cybernetics! (At no benefit to themselves, other than knowing that they have 'saved' a species from 'certain doom'.)

My current proposal with regards to same-sex reproduction (the draft of Assisted Apomictic Parthenogenesis) as already stretching the Veolian acceptance of such things to the limit. And that's only helping in the actual impregnation phase of a reproductive cycle.

For Veolians the one mitigating factor of this whole technological aid for same-sex reproduction is the fact that the accesible genepool is suddenly increased. As long as the technology is only used at conception, the benefits barely outweigh the perceived badness of using technology for reproduction.


I am tempted to say that our worlds are just too different to work out a technology that is beneficial for both, but I'm stubborn, and want to keep digging. I think your technology have potential -- maybe we can polish it into an acceptable state? (We do not have to limit ourselves to same-sex reproduction; I can do that with my draft already, and you can do it without any further technologies...)

What about instead of going the 'cellular cybernetics' route (which is very interesting, but not the Veolians' cup of tea) we look into gestation and birth improvements?

[Brend]

Before I forget: Can someone look over the draft of Assisted Apomictic Parthenogenesis and associated special project for feedback? (@Chriz and @Mercury usually have some say about it...)

[Chriz]

The technology cost seems alright for me. I think the special project (using 0.75 per product it is 2000 ) is a bit cheap since it has no continuous cost. We already calculated this before and the cost (technology + project) should be at least 10k in this current proposal (This is 5 times Genome correctors.) I would say add a continuous cost similar to double power that makes it cheaper as a whole.

I have spoken with Brend about this. The new idea will get a continuous cost with a products upkeep every turn to make the combination of technology and special project affordable.

[Brend]

I edited the wiki page. Based on Chriz' comments, I calculated the following:

1. Genome Correctors is a one-time payment of 2000 for +0.1
2. This project basically allows a genome corrector level project every growth period (i.e. every decaturn)
3. Based on Mercury's remark I put the multiplication-factor at 6
4. The project would have to cost 6 x 2000 = 12000
5. 6 x 2000 - (3500 ; from the research) - (1500 in products + 1000 ; the investment of the project) = 6000
6. To conclude: we are 6000 of investments short of balanced
7. So, let's half the base cost we use, and have an upkeep payment cover the missing part:
8. 6 x 1000 - (3500 ; from the research) - (1500 in products + 1000 ; the investment of the project) = 0
9. Every 10 a payment equal to 1000 should be made, so we want to add upkeep:
10. 25 + 50 + 50 per

Step 3 is the weakest, as Mercury already indicated that he did not take into account the exponential growth of the added population. However, I think the factor 6 (instead of his 5) and the fact that the growth of +0.1 is not based on the actual size of your population (so, speaking in growth percentages, it will always be 1% or less and will actually decrease over time as your population continues to grow) and the fact that upkeep is required every turn and can not be buffered make up for this.

(I also fixed a small oversight: the project now only gives the +0.1 on a single planet, not on all planets with >=10.0 )

[Mercury]

You failed to amortize the technology cost over multiple players, which I believe should lead to some higher cost. Other than that the pricing looks fine and I like the upkeep, so I think the adjustment necessary will be minor.

However, price aside, I'd like to make this technology slightly more interesting. I think we have enough technologies that basically grow the population at a higher speed. Can we add or do anything to make it more interesting instead of just more?

[Brend]

You failed to amortize the technology cost over multiple players, which I believe should lead to some higher cost. Other than that the pricing looks fine and I like the upkeep, so I think the adjustment necessary will be minor.

How much? Because as has been shown in the past, we do not always agree on the definition of 'minor' :P

However, price aside, I'd like to make this technology slightly more interesting. I think we have enough technologies that basically grow the population at a higher speed. Can we add or do anything to make it more interesting instead of just more?

Guess what we've been trying to do the whole thread... The problem is that the current rules for population don't leave you with very much knobs to tweak. There is growth. There is population production. There is upkeep. The first two are both highly volatile, the last one is an afterthought.

I'm open to the weirdest suggestions, and I am sure that dragonmaster352 would also be delighted if someone came up with new ideas (he and I tend to both want this technology but we can't in any way or form find something that would be interesting for both our factions -- which was the premise of this thread T_T). So if you have anything, please say so.

[Brend]

Besides, I just followed the recipe from your previous post... It might be nice if you could explain once and for all what these mystical calculations are, cause I am a bit fed up with only hearing 'should be more expensive' wihtout knowing how to compensate for getting that next time.

It sounds like all technologies are divided by the mythical 'faction factor', even though this is a highly specialistic technology that most factions won't even consider. And I don't really feel like staying on the current path of paying the price of two or three factions for every technology I want to implement while no-one else is actually going to do anything with it anyway.

Maybe we should have some guidelines spelled out? Especially as there are more active players, and they also propose technologies (we have a wave of military tech a while ago, and of all those ideas, only a single one has made it into the game at this moment.)

[Elmer]

hmmm, now I think of it:

Increase the bonus your population provides (so a sort of increased population, but without more population). For example: 1 or more racial characteristics will be twice as productive, or 1,5 times productive. So 1% growth from high fecundity, +20 organics per 1 with organics oriented. <-- I know, this is still too much, but that is way it is just an example.

Let you have two armies per 1 instead of one. (All the men can fight, while the women can still have a lover and can produce more babies. ) I don't know if there are more elements restricted by the amount of , but those limitations can profit from this tech as well.

Your population produces an additional X amount of something per 1 ( (maybe :utilities) ?) while needing an upkeep of something else ( (maybe :healthcare) ?)

The tech allows an additional maximum of 1 per X amount of zones.

Again all values are just to for sake of the examples. They are definitely not meant as final and true values.

[Brend]

I like Elmer's suggestions -- even though not all of them seem fitting for the current two technologies under discussion, he highlights a few factors of population I forgot about. That being said, I still think that it will be difficult to find enough aspects of the population to tweak. Especially since there are only a few players that really focus on large populations, and their interests might be in different parts of the effects of large populations.

And now for a short summary of the work so far.

The power-consuming tech effects

This tech seems to be the best one to go on for the direct 'Veolian Commonwealth and Stellarian Triad Federation both want this'. This tech is currently undescribed in full, but prototypes exist in the posts by Brend and by dragonmaster352.

I think that this one should focus on the population growth, as this is something that seems to have the interest of dragonmaster352 as well (and everyone knows it has my interest always :P). The main obstacle to this tech isn't the balance of the tech, but finding fluff that fits both the Commonwealth and the Federation.

That the technology might be boring is true, but I think it is not necessarily bad for the game to have multiple technologies and developments that have the same effect (i.e. Genetic Lineage Archives and this tech both do the same, but that's not wrong of itself).

The same-sex tech effects

This tech seems to become more of a derivative of the fluff-only 'Stellarian Triad Federation has same-sex reproductive tech' (which is a very reasonable fluff capability) and then stretching that out into a more common-place thing. The current incarnation of this tech is described in full at Assisted Apomictic Parthenogenesis.

This tech should focus less on the growth aspect (which it already does less, by way of not offering +1%, but +0.1/decaturn -- which decreases in usefulness over time). The main problem here is that just another growth boost seems a bit boring, and an additional benefit should be found to fit the fluff (which might reduce some of the growth effect, but preferable not all).

I like the the 'support two armies per 1.0 ' effect, especially as it fits the fluff and doesn't offer any immediate benefits other than an application of racial characteristics to a few extra armies. You still have to pay upkeep for these armies, and they still need to be built.

I think that the 'support two armies per 1.0 ' would not necessarily require the upkeep.

@Mercury: I have no clue on the pricing of this, and you're probably going to redo any calculations I do on the subject anyway. If we add the double army support effect to the tech, and leave the special project as the growth increase+upkeep component, how much would this then cost?

[Brend]

In light of 'On technology design' I have updated the Assisted Apomictic Parthenogenesis and Same-sex Reproduction Catalysts.

Instead of giving yet another +1% population growth, it gives +0.5% population growth and the project now allows you to support an additional army or defence force per 1.0 . The costs remain the same, as this is the second population growth tech, and should have diminishing returns.

I think that the diminished returns should still have some impact on the costs, but I erred on the side of caution and left it at the full price; lowering costs is always appreciated. Also, the upkeep feels a bit forced at the moment, any suggestions there would be welome.

I'd like comments from:

@Mercury: please have a look at the new tech for cost balancing.

@dragonmaster352: I removed the restriction on having 10.0 , so anyone can now get this tech. Still interested?

[Dragonmaster352]

I like the idea and the fluff sits good with me to as nanobots fit well with cybernetics.

One question the population growth and upkeep is for the entire system or only one planet?

[Brend]

This project increases the population growth in the system by +0.5%.

^_^

Since this is the diminishing returns to the Genetic Lineage Archives, I pulled it to the whole system.

[Mercury]

I think the new pricing is about right. I also think this technology and associated project is ready for sanctioning.

[Brend]

I think the new pricing is about right. I also think this technology and associated project is ready for sanctioning.

Hurray!

If no one objects, I will push these to the wiki in a week (so either during, or just after the Write-a-thon).

[Elmer]

I don't object :)

[Brend]

The Assisted Apomictic Parthenogenesis and Same-sex Reproduction Catalysts pages have been created!

I consider this thread to have served its purpose.

[Dragonmaster352]

Woohoo!