Fwurg

[Brend]

Dragonmaster352 and I propose a new technology, and associated special project.

Technology:

Sympathetic Apomictic Parthenogenesis

Though normally an asexuel method of reproduction, parthenogenesis can be co-opted to allow same-sex reproduction without the loss of genetic recombination. Through apomictic parthenogenesis, and the introduction of genetic material from a second individual, same-sex reproduction can be achieved without losing the properties of sexual reproduction: natural genetic recombination.

This technology allows the construction of the Same-sex Reproduction Catalysation project.

Prerquisites: Fundamental Genetics Research

Cost: 3500 , 5

Special project:

Same-sex Reproduction Catalysation

Through the distribution of new methods and techniques for sympathetic apomictic parthenogenesis, same-sex reproduction becomes available at a larger scale.

Every ten turns, when the population grows, you get +0.1 for the largest population group in the system. This +0.1 is considered actual growth and is added to the normal growth before rounding.

The Same-sex Reproduction Catalysation project can only be constructed on systems with the Genome Correctors project.

Prerequisites: Sympathetic Apomictic Parthenogenesis

Cost: 2500 , 5

The reasoning behind the cost: the Genome Correctors project cost 2000 for a single +0.1 boost. Technologies are calculated for 4-8 factions, so that would make the Genome Correctors (should they be a technology) roughly 8000 .

First, we designed this is a single technology, however, that would make the technology extremely expensive. So we decided to split up the idea into a technology, and a special project. This way, it isn't possible to just transfer a technology for population growth and have everyone see an appreciable growth increase.

As the special project is not tradable, and because we require that the Genome Correctors project is already finished, we think that the current figures balance out well.

(If people think the technology is too accesible, we could move it behind Genetic Filtering; though Genetic Filtering will mostly act like a speedbump if we do so, as nobody has researched the technology as of yet.)

Opinions?

[Mercury]

Technologies that increase the growth speed of population require some careful calculations due to their complexity and potential following of the exponential function. My gut says its on the cheap side.

[Brend]

Mmm. I agree, on second viewing it does seem a bit cheap.

If we take the new genome correctors as a base, that would be 2000 every 10 turns, which would be 200 per for a +0.1 . So, if we look at this project, it would continuously cost 200 per . However, this project becomes less and less useful as your population grows, as the +0.1 will become a smaller share of the overall growth over time.

One of the main problems with this technology is that what I call an 'RP balancing factor' is not submissable as actual balancing factor. The fact that same-sex reproduction is available is not in itself a reason to actually research this, and start the project -- your worlds culture might have some problems with it. However, this can not be used, because the 'real' minmaxer ignores such concerns.

Urgh. I have this nagging feeling that this thread will end in one of two things: 1) being ignored because FWURG is buzzing at the moment, or 2) I'll have to make do with a 16000 tech because of the twinked out über min-maxed extreme case of a system having heaploads of population...)

An idea: what if the project only works if the population has reached at least a certain size? The Genome Correctors require at least 2.0 , this project could require at least 4.0 . (Unfortunately, that would make it useless for the other interested party: the Stellarian Triad Federation. Though at 3.71 they might reach the 4.0 line before this tech is approved & researched in full, especially with the Genome Correctors prereq.)

Any ETA on that careful calculations?

[Brend]

Fedor just noted: The Genealogical Archives gives +1%, and costs around 4000 for a single race. And 1% is equivalent to 0.1 for populations above 10.0. So, one way to balance this would be to say it only works on populations larger than 10.0 , (Brend said with a big smile).

Of course, for smaller populations it is more valuable, but for larger populations it is certainly less valuable.

Just a note for your consideration ^_^

[Brend]

A bit of background and ranting: We are looking for a technology that allows an interesting population interaction (and since growth is the only real population thing, that's it). However, the STF doesn't have that much population, so any technology should be useful to around a faction around 4.0 ... Unfortunately, that would make it interesting to almost all Union members.

So, I'm afraid this technology will get massively expensive -- or the other opposite: everyone will want this, making it less interesting as a way to distinguish the Veolian Commonwealth and the STF from others: if everyone has advanced technologies that allow them to muck with reproductive processes and such, we're not really different.

If anyone has another idea that would allow this distinguishment, without making everyone immediately go "Oh hey, population growth. I want that!" (<rant>And everyone will largely ignore the fact that this population is coming from same-sex reproduction -- after all, who cares about culture... It's all about the bottom line.</rant>)

[Chriz]

The general consensus is that we all want population growth. In this case the tech would be viable for every Union member or just the Veolian Commonwealth.

I think that the pair of technology and special project is too cheap in its current proposal if you use Genome Correctors as the baseline for 0.1 at the price of 2000 . This project is very powerful and 0.1 / is a very good boost. Even for the Veolian Commonwealth it would still be a significant increase in growth.

Since this new technology is a permanent boost of 0.1 / I would say that it would cost 4-8 times the price of Genome Corectors just like with calculating a sharable tech. In this case it would mean that the pair would probably be at least 10k. In my opinion the cost of the special project should be at least as high as the technology here. That would mean something like 5k for the tech and 5k for the implementation. In this case many factions will still consider it but only a few will actually be capable of implementing it.

[Brend]

I guess you're right. I seem to have forgotten that most people don't have 15.0+ population. To me +0.1 is worse than +1% ^_^

The problem with this flat rate is that it is very good at the start, and becomes less interesting once you have a large population. And since most players have little population (I count anything less than 5.0 as 'little'), this tech will be enormously interesting.

I'm still interested in Mercury's assessment though -- but there is the possibility that me and Dragonmaster352 go back to the drawing board O_o

[Caldoss]

A tech that becomes exponentially less useful seems to me a better thing than a tech that becomes exponentially more useful.

[Mercury]

I think it is excellent you two worked together on this technology. My post is going to be rather critical, but please do not think this is a personal attack or that I disapprove of your cooperative efforts, I'm merely being critical so that we can find ways to improve upon the design for better game balance.

First off: I had promised to do a detailed exponential calculation, but when I did the linear simple version as a baseline, I already had to conclude the numbers were way off.

The Genome Correctors costs 2000 for a single +0.1 , whereas the Same-sex Reproduction Catalysation costs 2500 for a continuous +0.1 every decaturn. The 3500 tech would be split amongst 5 (or 4, or 6) factions or so, leading to a total cost of 3200 for a continuous +0.1 pop every decaturn. That means SSRC outpaces Genome Correctors in about 16 turns. That's not balanced any way you slice it.

Usually for continuous bonus projects and techs, I calculate a year for Return On Investment, which would put the SSRC at a minimum cost of 10.000 (5x2000), making this project at least 7000 too cheap, not counting the exponential factor.

Beyond this, while I applaud the inclusivity of the technology, I have to say that I think compared to Xeno-obstetrics, it pales somewhat in its level of complexity. Presumably if you work on making a cross between a carbon based Insectoid and a silicon based Crystaline species, matching same-sex partners within a single species is not that hard.

But I have another problem with it: SSRC does not have the same fit Genome Correctors does into the grand storyline, the latter of which being developed during a conference based on player speeches. It is also, both in cost and in actual benefit, completely superior to Genome Correctors, making the latter basically obsolete. Plus we already have several ways of growing population, so why do we need SSRC in addition?

Now, as I mentioned, this is not to say I disapprove of your efforts, but I think we have various area's that we need to improve upon, which brings me to a base question: what are you trying to accomplish? Because knowing that, I think we can work on this technology to have it still accomplish that goal without the various problems I described.

Again, its good you two worked on this, and I think we can make it work, but we do need to make some adjustments.

[Brend]

Yeah. I was afraid of that. The more I saw this tech, the more I became convinced that it was really bad design space. Too cheap, too good, and generally making sure that large populations aren't unique any more, as everyone will want this. Flat rates aren't going to cut it.

As to the grand storyline: this is also because of an IC reason: this post [ STF Embassy ] High Priestess Amilia and Lady-Senator Maria Latharion meet with Senator Nehket Aeka <private> (and the next post), where we decide to have our scientific staff meet -- so there is a reason this suddenly pops up: The STF wishes to share their same-sex reproduction technologies with others, and together with the Veolian Commonwealth they wish to improve upon their technologies. Of course the Veolian Commonwealth is interested, as this might be a way to increase the gene pool for evolutionary purposes (though not everyone in the commonwealth might think that same-sex reproduction is a good thing!)


Now, on to what we are trying to accomplish: we are looking for a technology with a population theme (preferably something same-sexy related, as both factions have a distinct interest in this). As this is indeed a bit of a given (as you said, xeno-obstetrics implies that any same-species reproductive trickery is obsolete) we were looking for ways to have improve upon this.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a population growth increase; I would be perfectly happy with anything else that somehow improves population. As long as it benefits both the Veolian Commonwealth and the Stellarian Triad Federation. Read as: both large populations and small populations... and that's a bit of an issue; if the tech is useful for the STF, it's basically useful for everyone. And since more population directly equates to more income, people want it.

(On of the problems with finding another area of improvement is that the Genetic Filtering technology is going to be held up as comparison material, whilst nobody has researched this tech. The Veolian Commonwealth didn't because they find that approach immoral. And while I'm not sure, I think others didn't because the perceived benefits aren't worth the investment.)

Of course, the dragonmaster351 might also have an idea about where this should go ^_^

[Mercury]

Perhaps it would be interesting to make a tech where there is a trade off for population growth, in other words, where you do get growth but you have to give up something else, like a cost in power use or production or something... Just generally brainstorming.

[Brend]

This power-for-growth things sounds interesting, but I'd rather not spend another zone on it to be honest. (Unless it works on the whole system, as with the Genealogical Archives).

You wouldn't perchance have some rough calculation on the possible cost of such a gimmick?

[Mercury]

I was pulling it out of my uhm... hat as I was writing it. Nope, not at this time. But I was thinking increased power cost or a production penalty, not zone cost in this.

[Brend]

I like the increased power cost thingy. I should look into that. Maybe dragonmaster352 has an opinion on this as well?

[Dragonmaster352]

I agree that increased power would be a good possibility. Would it be on the added population growth or the entire population?

[Mercury]

I'm not making a complete proposal. I'm merely pointing out some options to look at as a way of leaving an option interesting but perhaps not the best option for everyone. Coming up with a cool tech is your department ^_^

Btw, you could make a tech with same-sex procreation, but perhaps you need a different angle than simply enabling it?

[Brend]

I will converse with dragonmaster352 about this new inspiration.

[Brend]

I have two ideas. The problem is: one of them is just bland, for the other, I don't know a good mechanical effect

Planet-wide Transportation System (or Distributed Cloning Vats)

By improving current public transporation and offering planet-wide mass-transit routes potential mates have more opportunities to meet.

(or By strategic placements of cloning facilities, the desired level of population growth can be attained without further strain on the population.)

On a world improved by this special project, every 0.1 costs an additional 1 , and the population has a +1% growth rate.

Assisted Apomictic Parthenogenesis

Using nubots to assist with apomictic parthenogenesis, and to solve the issue the logistic challenge of same-sex procreation, reproduction is not constrained by biological limits. After fertilisation through parthenogenesis, the nubots quickly decay and are removed from the system so they do not hinder the development of the child.

No effect as of yet. Instead of just enabling same-sex procreation, this technology enables 'home pregnancy kits' which allow wide-scale deployment. So instead of enabling, it is a scaling technology. (Depending on species some pairings are still difficult to support due to other biological constraints. I.e., for mammals, a womb is required for the development of the embryo.)

What do you people think of the bland first thingy? If positive, I might design the actual technology and special project that goes with it. For the second idea, I desperately need a mechanical effect.

[Chriz]

I think the Planet-wide Transportation System (or Distributed Cloning Vats) technology should work. It can be explained in multiple ways with a different fluff explanation for each world.

The one world limitation combined with the power cost should give some balance against the 1 % growth.

Start with a technology of about 2000 and 5 combined with a special project for implementation that should require some , and in about the same amounts as the genealogical archives initial cost.

[Brend]

I think I will look into something with less in it this time.


For the parthenogenesis, I'm actually thinking of using the first idea (the flat +0.1 ) as a percentage based growth does not sound logical. This time I want to guard against the 'way too good!' problem by putting a conditional on it: It only works with 10.0+ . This makes it equal or worse to 1% growth (1% of 10.0 = 0.1). This makes it less of a cooperative technology, unfortunately.

The reasoning behind the flat rate and the condition of 10.0+ is that biologically speaking there is only a small fraction of the population that is 'naturally' interested in this option (though culture has a very large impact). So at lower populations, the impact is to small.

[Brend]

I have drafted the Assisted Apomictic Parthenogenesis in my design namespace on the wiki.

I intended to draft the +1%(:pop) growth tech as well, but I found my imagination lacking. It is just too boring. Does anyone have any inspiration on the fluffy creative part of a technology that offers a +1%(:pop) growth in exchange for doubled population costs?

[Dragonmaster352]

I've finally been able to come up with something.

But I'm lacking on time right now.

will get back to you on it later this weekend.

[Dragonmaster352]

Ok you've all waited patiently so here's the idea.

Artificial cell reproduction catalyst

Genetic material from the parents is assimilated by an artificially created cell. The cell can add or remove material if desired. The cell then starts Apomictic Porthenogenesis. Additional materials are added to continue cell division. These materials can be both organic or non-organic. When a certain size or amount of cells is reached it can be implanted into an embryo gestation system (womb, egg, clonevat, etc.). Additional supplements may be required to be given to the embryo. The machinery required for this process draws a rather substantial amount of energy.

On a world improved by this special project, every 0.1 costs an additional 1 , and the population has a +1% growth rate.

I tried to think of a simpler and shorter version of the fluff explanation but failed in that.

Thoughts?

[Brend]

Long fluff is good. It seems that this is effectively a brute-force solution to population growth? That is: genetic material + power in -> children out? I kinda fail to see how this improves reproduction, as what you describe here is basically the 'normal' method of operation for biological reproduction, except outside of the body.

And it still requires womb, egg or clonevate -- which makes me think that this alone couldn't really improve reproductive speeds?

(I'm just trying to understand what the idea behind this is -- by no means should this be construed as a negative comment only. In fact, I am very happy that other people have an interest in designing things for FWURG ^_^)

[Dragonmaster352]

And it still requires womb, egg or clonevate -- which makes me think that this alone couldn't really improve reproductive speeds?

Well technically you could leave that out, but I was under the impression the Veolians would prefer something like that.

I also wanted a different incentive than just enabling same-sex reproduction, to make it attractive for my own faction.

In this case that would be cybernetics on a cellular level, as this technology would allow the creation non-organic based cells (cells made of metals instead of carbohydrate compounds)