Fwurg

[Brend]

It seems the wiki page for Scientist doesn't list a specific field.

However, I can tell you from personal experience that research is done in a completely different ways when comparing Computer Science and Psychology. I think that Scientist was meant as a single skill, that did not mean 'capable of applying the scientific method', but 'is very knowledgable and reputable in the field of X'.

So, I suggest that we reduce Scientist to a single field: the field of Physics. If we allow any science to be put under there, it is basically the only skill that matters, as Medicine is nothing but specialized science, just as Mechanical Engineer (applied physics), Weapons Engineer (applied physics with a focus on energy dynamics) or any other skill, such as Programming (computer science), Slicing (security systems research) or even Pilot (applied hyperphysics) or Military Command (applied Military science).

I propose to remove the 'Scientist' skill as it is ambiguous, and either a) replace it with either a set of skills in different fields, or b) just leave it out completely, as it doesn't really matter to adventurers.

I suggest we go for option b. Option b) does not really hurt anyone, as the only character with Scientist (T'Sal) can easily claim a circumstance bonus whenever her background in physics research is applicable. Just like other characters claim circumstance bonuses.

In my opinion, option a) would effectively create a set of skills that will not be used in adventures (adventures aren't research or the writing of papers), while clogging up the system with skills no one takes.

[Elmer]

I think scientist is for the theories behind stuff, and things like medicine and mechanical engineer is for the practical application of it.

So when you have scientist, you can describe how and why a medical surgery has to be done, but you cannot do it yourself as you simply lack the practise to do so. This however does create the issue that skills like medicine will overlap with scientist.

So in the Request for assistance mission, T'sal can quickly think of a scientific way of searching the room, but she lacks the skills to actually do so. As she can now to look for fingerprints, but does not know how and where to look for fingerprints. She simply will miss important stuff as she is not used to investigate a room.

But I also think this will still not really solve the issue, as we will again and again be in the discussion whether or not you require practice for that specific scientific method for that specific check.

I propose to change the 'scientist' skill for 'physicist'. The character knows physics and can can apply it on the field. He or she can for example quickly think of a way to change the polarity of the blaster, and knows how to change a hyperdrive into a mass simulator. However, the character cannot apply it as this require mechanical engineer to do so.

[Stuiter]

Being a scientist is not only knowing theories, it is also knowing how to do research/experiments. If you get higher up you also need to know how to write papers and research proposals, give presentation etc. "Modern science" is a way of thinking systematically about a field. Like Brend says "modern science" can be applied to various fields which have the same basic idea, but the knowledge and skills differ quite strongly per field.

I do not like the idea of creating too specific skills and having a huge skill list (like DnD). But I also want to give players the opportunity to create interesting characters. I think scientist is a good skill, but that a player needs to pick a field of specialty.If you know the basic of doing science you can also switch fields (but that would take some time).

[Brend]

But picking a field is basically the same as having a large list of skills: one for each field.

To be brutally honest, I have not seen a single check where Scientist would actually be useful. Some checks can benefit from a circumstance bonus because someone has a background as a researcher. But things like 'writing a paper' sounds like a social skill to me, and we deliberately left those out.

I look forward to the opinions of others. If you do not voice an opinion, I will assume that you agree with whatever consensus will be reached here.

[Mercury]

Scientist is a broad term. William Whewell proposed in 'The Philosophy of the Inductive Sciences' in 1840:

"We need very much a name to describe a cultivator of science in general. I should incline to call him a Scientist. Thus we might say, that as an Artist is a Musician, Painter, or Poet, a Scientist is a Mathematician, Physicist, or Naturalist."

That said, I think we are taking the wrong approach if we try to prevent many skills from rising up. In fact, I'd be glad to see many skills.

The skill system we have is not like D&D - we don't have a set of skills that together cover every eventuality. Instead, players can choose anything as their skill. It can be a broad skill or a narrow one. Broad skills are useful in more situations, but as such, the difficulty of using them is higher. By contrast, narrow skills are useful only in very specific situations, and in those, the difficulty is lower.

A player with a skill in "mechanics" can repair a broken robot leg, but so can a player with a skill in "robotic locomotion" - the difficulty with mechanics is higher than the difficulty with robotic locomotion.

This means skills are allowed to overlap. That automatically means more (in fact an infinite number) of skills are possible.

That said, I do agree 'scientist' is too general. Lets add something like Mathematics, Physics, or Biology instead depending on what the current scientists want!

[Brend]

Ok, my mind has been changed by the compelling argument of Mercury.

Let's see about splitting up Scientist into the major fields of study: Physics, Biology, Mathematics, Chemistry, Astronomy... You know what, We'll just see what the current scientist wants, and we'll fix just that skill ^_^

My guess is that it would be Physics, am I right, Stuiter?

[Stuiter]

I see that scientist is too broad and that by taking Physicist you know what it does and can make checks with it.
Then T'sal would like to change her scientist in physicist. Is it okay to change that in the skill list, mercury?

[Brend]

As this is a rules change, you are allowed to change your character to accomodate for this.

I will update the skill listing to remove Scientist and add Physicist, and post an official rules change thread.

EDIT: Official rules change announcement.