Form V: Shien / Djem So
RemcoSwenker
Brend
Chriz
Mercury
Dragonmaster352
Elmer
Stuiter
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Form V: Shien / Djem So
RemcoSwenker » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:27 pm
I have been thinking this weekend as i said earlier and i have come up with some things for form V. comments are in yellow
Form V was developed by practitioners of Form III: Soresu who felt that the defensively-minded form would unnecessarily extend time spent in combat by forcing its users to wait for an opportunity to strike rather than create their own openings. Form V combat is characterized by power attacks and defense immediately followed by a counter-strike
I have switched around the bonuses of ataru as both styles are made around the same time with simmilar intentions. except that Djem So was more directed towards power blows and lower maneuverability. So the outer ring has been boosted in offense instead of the inner ring. this lead me to make the following statistics.
The style can be used with Long and Regular blades in Long and Regular hilts. A force pike and saber staffs.
Since this is a power style I think two hands at all times is legit.
For the maneuvers i have made the following:
Barrier of Blades: Defended the user from blasterfire and redirected some of the incoming blasts.
May be used to deflect one blaster shot to any target per round.
straight forward simple translation of the move from wookipedia
Falling Avalanche: An overhand power blow that crashed down upon an opponent with incredible force.
Opposed strength check to force opponent back with a +2 bonus on the check.
seems like a legitemate DCA to me
Fluid Riposte: A smooth transition from parrying an attack to a counterstrike.
I'm not sure what to do with this one as a special.
Shien Deflection: Simultaneously deflect weapons fire and leap towards an opponent.
I don't even have an idea what kind of stats this should give
So any thoughts, suggestions or burnings at the stake?
Form V was developed by practitioners of Form III: Soresu who felt that the defensively-minded form would unnecessarily extend time spent in combat by forcing its users to wait for an opportunity to strike rather than create their own openings. Form V combat is characterized by power attacks and defense immediately followed by a counter-strike
I have switched around the bonuses of ataru as both styles are made around the same time with simmilar intentions. except that Djem So was more directed towards power blows and lower maneuverability. So the outer ring has been boosted in offense instead of the inner ring. this lead me to make the following statistics.
- Code: Select all
Attack Slashing Cutting Piercing
3 2 2
Defense Dodging Blocking Deflecting
0 1 1
The style can be used with Long and Regular blades in Long and Regular hilts. A force pike and saber staffs.
Since this is a power style I think two hands at all times is legit.
For the maneuvers i have made the following:
Barrier of Blades: Defended the user from blasterfire and redirected some of the incoming blasts.
- Code: Select all
Attack Slashing Cutting Piercing
0 0 0
Defense Dodging Blocking Deflecting
0 0 2
May be used to deflect one blaster shot to any target per round.
straight forward simple translation of the move from wookipedia
Falling Avalanche: An overhand power blow that crashed down upon an opponent with incredible force.
- Code: Select all
Attack Slashing Cutting Piercing
2 0 0
Defense Dodging Blocking Deflecting
0 0 0
Opposed strength check to force opponent back with a +2 bonus on the check.
seems like a legitemate DCA to me
Fluid Riposte: A smooth transition from parrying an attack to a counterstrike.
- Code: Select all
Attack Slashing Cutting Piercing
0 1 0
Defense Dodging Blocking Deflecting
0 1 0
I'm not sure what to do with this one as a special.
Shien Deflection: Simultaneously deflect weapons fire and leap towards an opponent.
I don't even have an idea what kind of stats this should give
So any thoughts, suggestions or burnings at the stake?
Brend » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:41 pm
After much discussion, Remco, Elmer and me came up with the following refinement of the previous proposal. Note that it's basically another take on Form V.
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Djem So is a Combat Style, the fifth of the seven classical styles, also known as the “The Way of the Krayt Dragon”. Djem So was developed by practitioners of Soresu who felt that the defensively-minded form would unnecessarily extend time spent in combat by forcing its users to wait for an opportunity to strike rather than create their own openings. Djem So placed a heavy focus on brute strength, utilizing wide, powerful strikes and parries.
Description: Form V: a perseverance style
Prerequisites: Jedi, Soresu style
Usage Limitation: Requires a two-handed lightsaber.
Base Statistics: Slashing ● / Cutting ● / Piercing ○ | Dodging ●● / Blocking ●●● / Deflecting ●●●
Djem So has the following special manoeuvres:
Barrier of Blades: When attacked by multiple targets, you gain a +1 slashing.
(Slashing +1, Cutting +1)
Falling Avalanche: If a minor injury is scored and one of the defeated defences is the the Dodging Defence (Outer Ring), the impact inflicts an additional -1 off-balance penalty on attacks and defences. (As the off-balance penalty, this penalty last one round).
(Slashing +1)
Fluid Riposte: When you successfully deflect a melee attack during a turn using your Blocking defence, you gain a +2 on your Cuting attack next turn (in accordance with the Parry Mechanism, you use the style with which you defended one turn on attack the next). The +2 bonus is on top of the +1 bonus this Special Manoeuvre applies to this style.
(Cutting +1)
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We designed this style to start out a little stronger than normal, as we require Soresu as a prerequisite. As the style is intended to grow into a full duelling style, the special manoeuvres focus on increasing offensive power; and they do so by using powerful slashes and overwhelming attacks, while keeping the defensive character of the style in mind.
We had the idea to require Strength 6+ to learn Falling Avalanche, but we want to keep attributes out of the combat sphere.
We look forward comments.
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Djem So is a Combat Style, the fifth of the seven classical styles, also known as the “The Way of the Krayt Dragon”. Djem So was developed by practitioners of Soresu who felt that the defensively-minded form would unnecessarily extend time spent in combat by forcing its users to wait for an opportunity to strike rather than create their own openings. Djem So placed a heavy focus on brute strength, utilizing wide, powerful strikes and parries.
Description: Form V: a perseverance style
Prerequisites: Jedi, Soresu style
Usage Limitation: Requires a two-handed lightsaber.
Base Statistics: Slashing ● / Cutting ● / Piercing ○ | Dodging ●● / Blocking ●●● / Deflecting ●●●
Djem So has the following special manoeuvres:
Barrier of Blades: When attacked by multiple targets, you gain a +1 slashing.
(Slashing +1, Cutting +1)
Falling Avalanche: If a minor injury is scored and one of the defeated defences is the the Dodging Defence (Outer Ring), the impact inflicts an additional -1 off-balance penalty on attacks and defences. (As the off-balance penalty, this penalty last one round).
(Slashing +1)
Fluid Riposte: When you successfully deflect a melee attack during a turn using your Blocking defence, you gain a +2 on your Cuting attack next turn (in accordance with the Parry Mechanism, you use the style with which you defended one turn on attack the next). The +2 bonus is on top of the +1 bonus this Special Manoeuvre applies to this style.
(Cutting +1)
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We designed this style to start out a little stronger than normal, as we require Soresu as a prerequisite. As the style is intended to grow into a full duelling style, the special manoeuvres focus on increasing offensive power; and they do so by using powerful slashes and overwhelming attacks, while keeping the defensive character of the style in mind.
We had the idea to require Strength 6+ to learn Falling Avalanche, but we want to keep attributes out of the combat sphere.
We look forward comments.
Chriz » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:48 pm
I think it is a decent combat style. With the prerequisite and restrictions I think it is balanced. The Falling Avalanche has Sun Djem like qualities but that should be fair as it is an advanced combat style. I don't think that the 6 strength is necessary.
Player of the Praetorian Empire
Mercury » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:24 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
The second proposal for style looks excellent. I especially like how it captures the basic defensive format (as a starting practitioner would first learn the defensive form) while later adding, through special manoeuvres, more offensive power. This represents exactly how I would imagine the style would be learned! Excellent work there!
I would suggest some minor changes, however:
As this is a second tier style I would propose boosting its dots towards 12. I propose placing these two additional dots in the Deflecting department as the style is supposed to be based on Shien which is a style designed to be used vs blasters.
Slashing 1
Cutting 1
Piercing 0
Dodging 2
Blocking 3
Deflecting 5
I also feel Falling Avalanche does not really fit with the style. It is in my mind too aggressive. I do agree this style should be more offensively oriented than Form 3 which is defensive only, so I do not mind offensive powers, but I believe Falling Avalanche is more of a finishing move - it targets the weakness of an already weak opponent and the power (if not the name) fits better with Form VII.
I'd propose this alternative special manoeuvre, which captures the Shien part of the Shien / Djem So style:
Shien: When you successfully deflect a blaster bolt or similar projectile from an opponent and are not surpassed on any defensive ring (by any opponent), you gain a terrain bonus against the opponent firing the bolt or projectile (and only them) which grants a +1 bonus to all attacks, taking effect from next turn onwards. This bonus does not stack with other terrain bonuses, but does not require an action to acquire.
(Slashing +1)
I would suggest some minor changes, however:
As this is a second tier style I would propose boosting its dots towards 12. I propose placing these two additional dots in the Deflecting department as the style is supposed to be based on Shien which is a style designed to be used vs blasters.
Slashing 1
Cutting 1
Piercing 0
Dodging 2
Blocking 3
Deflecting 5
I also feel Falling Avalanche does not really fit with the style. It is in my mind too aggressive. I do agree this style should be more offensively oriented than Form 3 which is defensive only, so I do not mind offensive powers, but I believe Falling Avalanche is more of a finishing move - it targets the weakness of an already weak opponent and the power (if not the name) fits better with Form VII.
I'd propose this alternative special manoeuvre, which captures the Shien part of the Shien / Djem So style:
Shien: When you successfully deflect a blaster bolt or similar projectile from an opponent and are not surpassed on any defensive ring (by any opponent), you gain a terrain bonus against the opponent firing the bolt or projectile (and only them) which grants a +1 bonus to all attacks, taking effect from next turn onwards. This bonus does not stack with other terrain bonuses, but does not require an action to acquire.
(Slashing +1)
Dragonmaster352 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:21 pm
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Dragonmaster352 - Storyteller
just two quick questions
1: the bonus described in the description of the special manoeuvres, if those conditions are met the are added to the normal bonus?
example: fighting a single opponent barrier of blades provides +1/+1/+0, and if fighting multiple opponents it provides a +2/+1/+0 bonus.
2: this style would be learnable with just Soresu and a two handed hilt, no Soresu special manoeuvres are required?
1: the bonus described in the description of the special manoeuvres, if those conditions are met the are added to the normal bonus?
example: fighting a single opponent barrier of blades provides +1/+1/+0, and if fighting multiple opponents it provides a +2/+1/+0 bonus.
2: this style would be learnable with just Soresu and a two handed hilt, no Soresu special manoeuvres are required?
Mercury » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:27 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
Dragonmaster352 wrote:1: the bonus described in the description of the special manoeuvres, if those conditions are met the are added to the normal bonus?
example: fighting a single opponent barrier of blades provides +1/+1/+0, and if fighting multiple opponents it provides a +2/+1/+0 bonus.
Those bonuses apply whenever you use the style. Its basic value grows when you learn special manoeuvres.
Dragonmaster352 wrote:2: this style would be learnable with just Soresu and a two handed hilt, no Soresu special manoeuvres are required?
That is correct.
Brend » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:39 pm
Mercury wrote:The second proposal for style looks excellent. I especially like how it captures the basic defensive format (as a starting practitioner would first learn the defensive form) while later adding, through special manoeuvres, more offensive power. This represents exactly how I would imagine the style would be learned! Excellent work there!
Thanks!
Mercury wrote:As this is a second tier style I would propose boosting its dots towards 12. I propose placing these two additional dots in the Deflecting department as the style is supposed to be based on Shien which is a style designed to be used vs blasters.
We went with the Djem So part of the style, as we think Soresu is basically the anti-blaster style in our setting. We would like to see more saber-vs-saber combat, and we think having yet another anti-blaster style will not get the game to the point of epic duelling. Especially as the anti-blaster part of Soresu is bascially done (blaster can only target a single ring -- so Soresu would be perfectly capable of overcoming any and all blaster-focussed assaults).
As Djem So is more oriented toward brute force. Quote from Wookedpedia) to back this up: "Djem So placed a heavy focus on brute strength, utilizing wide, powerful strikes and parries. Power attacks from a Djem So user could even knock an opponent back just through sheer kinetic force, throwing them off balance and leaving them vulnerable to further brute force strikes and power blows that sought not just to penetrate an opponent's defense, but drive them back and leave them unable to counter."
So we tried to capture the 'brute force and driving back' part of in the Falling Avalanche: you lunge forward and, through application of brute force, force the other to stagger back and recover. It was not meant as a finishing move, but I see how it would easily work as such.
Mercury wrote:Shien: When you successfully deflect a blaster bolt or similar projectile from an opponent and are not surpassed on any defensive ring (by any opponent), you gain a terrain bonus against the opponent firing the bolt or projectile (and only them) which grants a +1 bonus to all attacks, taking effect from next turn onwards. This bonus does not stack with other terrain bonuses, but does not require an action to acquire.
(Slashing +1)
We deliberately avoided mucking with Terrain actions, as we think those are up to the players to use creatively. If you think this is fruitful design space, I see this working; although I think that this is not something that a lot of people will take. People using blasters are already easily ignored with Soresu, or on the fact that they attack at most one (or, in special cases, two) rings.
Elmer » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:06 pm
By designing the style, we deliberately dropped the 'blaster/piercing' part, and put focus on the 'hack and slash' part of the style. The wookiepedia idea of this style was that the jedi would still have a coming back change, while keeping the defences. We tried to capture this by making the falling avalanche a powerful attack to overcome the third ring, piercing, otherwise a jedi still wouldn't have a change against another jedi with this style, as he would miss the piercing ring.
This is also the reason the defence stats are a little lower than that of soresu, as the jedi offers a little defence to have a decent chance of winning.
I am not directly opposed to extra dots, but maybe this should be one in deflecting and one in blocking, otherwise the style might be too overpowered. Actually, maybe only one extra dot would be already good enough, as the style then already has two more dots than shii-cho and ataru.
This is also the reason the defence stats are a little lower than that of soresu, as the jedi offers a little defence to have a decent chance of winning.
I am not directly opposed to extra dots, but maybe this should be one in deflecting and one in blocking, otherwise the style might be too overpowered. Actually, maybe only one extra dot would be already good enough, as the style then already has two more dots than shii-cho and ataru.
Stuiter » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:37 pm
I do not know how quickly you learn new style, but your first style should still be useful and not that you just use your later styles because it has more dots.
Dragonmaster352 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:59 pm
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Dragonmaster352 - Storyteller
I have to agree with Brend. Anti-blaster is already more than covered by Soresu.
That being said, if extra dots would be assigned because it's a tier 2 style I think they should be added on the attack.
As was said the style focusses on heavy attacks and this would also stimulate the continued use of Soresu as it has higher defence bonuses. In a pinch the Jedi could fall back on Soresu.
That being said, if extra dots would be assigned because it's a tier 2 style I think they should be added on the attack.
As was said the style focusses on heavy attacks and this would also stimulate the continued use of Soresu as it has higher defence bonuses. In a pinch the Jedi could fall back on Soresu.
Brend » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:33 pm
Dragonmaster352 wrote:That being said, if extra dots would be assigned because it's a tier 2 style I think they should be added on the attack.
The idea of the style was to start out defensive, and become more offensive as the Jedi masters more and more of the style (by learning the manoeuvres).
Personally, I find 12 dots to be a little high, as I would also like to see the tier 1 styles keep their usefulness; having extra dots in deflect seems to invalidate Soresu as the anti-blaster style.
Brend » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:21 am
After some discussion and reasoning, we ('we' being Elmer, Chriz and myself) have two points to make.
Point the first: we agree with Mercury that advanced styles should indeed have 11-12 dots. This is because special manoeuvres add dots to a style, and the higher tier styles should still be a viable choice, even after mastering a few manoeuvres. Therefore, the higher tier styles should have higher base dots. (An example: Shebi Ajava has lost interest in Soresu because her mastery of the Water over the Falls manoeuvre of Shii-Cho offers nearly the same defensive ratings).
Point the second: Having another look at Wookiepedia, we think the styles were developed as such: Soresu -> Shien -> Djem So.
we do like the Shien manoeuvre, but we think it doesn't fit with the 'brute force while defensive' theme of Djem So. We like the implicit development path from Soresu to Djem So. Therefore, we propose to put this implicit development path in the style.
We think that the Shien special manoeuvre could be put in Soresu, and that this manoeuvre should be the prerequisite of the Djem So style. This clearly shows the required path of mastery.
This would keep Soresu the primary anti-blaster style, while keeping the new Form V in the Djem So theme.
How do others view this?
Point the first: we agree with Mercury that advanced styles should indeed have 11-12 dots. This is because special manoeuvres add dots to a style, and the higher tier styles should still be a viable choice, even after mastering a few manoeuvres. Therefore, the higher tier styles should have higher base dots. (An example: Shebi Ajava has lost interest in Soresu because her mastery of the Water over the Falls manoeuvre of Shii-Cho offers nearly the same defensive ratings).
Point the second: Having another look at Wookiepedia, we think the styles were developed as such: Soresu -> Shien -> Djem So.
we do like the Shien manoeuvre, but we think it doesn't fit with the 'brute force while defensive' theme of Djem So. We like the implicit development path from Soresu to Djem So. Therefore, we propose to put this implicit development path in the style.
We think that the Shien special manoeuvre could be put in Soresu, and that this manoeuvre should be the prerequisite of the Djem So style. This clearly shows the required path of mastery.
This would keep Soresu the primary anti-blaster style, while keeping the new Form V in the Djem So theme.
How do others view this?
Dragonmaster352 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:42 am
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Dragonmaster352 - Storyteller
Has anyone noticed that the Shien manoeuvre is very similar to the Deflective Slash manoeuvre of Soresu? If you would follow the line of Soresu -> Shien -> Djem So I believe this should be fixed somehow.
Brend » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:59 pm
I think they differ enough to both be placed in the same style; it shows the development of Soresu as a anti-blaster style.
Mercury » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:37 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
I like the Style -> Manoeuvre -> Style requirement idea - I also noticed the similarity in manoeuvre, but I think Shien can be unique enough and it fits with the style developing into an anti-blaster style, which it is canonically. So my blessing on that!
Mercury » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:45 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
RemcoSwenker, this was originally your proposal. When you have the time and energy, would you make a formal proposal with a Manoeuvre for Soresu as well as the new style with it as prerequisite? Based on the comments here, I think we can make this a proper style and approve it.
RemcoSwenker » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:15 pm
I will try and make something of it probably sunday or saturday. But I need some time to think on how to do it.
RemcoSwenker » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:48 am
I have been thinking this weekend and this is what's come out but it needs some polishing. We might need to move one stat around to tweak it but i'm pretty happy with it.
Form V: Shien / Djem So
Prerequisites: Jedi, Soresu style
Usage Limitation: Requires a two-handed lightsaber.
1/1/1 2/3/4
Barrier of Blades: Your lightsaber becomes a wall of death slashing up anyone who gets to close.
1/1/0 0/0/0
When attacked by multiple targets, you gain a +1 slashing.
Falling Avalanche: An overhand power blow that crashed down upon an opponent with incredible force.
1/0/0 0/0/0
If a minor injury is scored and one of the defeated defences is the the Dodging Defence (Outer Ring), the impact inflicts an additional -1 off-balance penalty on attacks and defences. (As the off-balance penalty, this penalty last one round).
Fluid Riposte: A smooth transition from parrying an attack to a counterstrike.
0/1/0 0/0/0
When you successfully deflect a melee attack during a turn using your Blocking defence, you gain a +2 on your Cuting attack next turn (in accordance with the Parry Mechanism, you use the style with which you defended one turn on attack the next). The +2 bonus is on top of the +1 bonus this Special Manoeuvre applies to this style.
For Soresu I am blatantly stealing mercury's idea cause i like it.
Shien: When you successfully deflect a blaster bolt or similar projectile from an opponent and are not surpassed on any defensive ring (by any opponent), you gain a terrain bonus against the opponent firing the bolt or projectile (and only them) which grants a +1 bonus to all attacks, taking effect from next turn onwards. This bonus does not stack with other terrain bonuses, but does not require an action to acquire.
1/0/0 0/0/0
Form V: Shien / Djem So
Prerequisites: Jedi, Soresu style
Usage Limitation: Requires a two-handed lightsaber.
1/1/1 2/3/4
Barrier of Blades: Your lightsaber becomes a wall of death slashing up anyone who gets to close.
1/1/0 0/0/0
When attacked by multiple targets, you gain a +1 slashing.
Falling Avalanche: An overhand power blow that crashed down upon an opponent with incredible force.
1/0/0 0/0/0
If a minor injury is scored and one of the defeated defences is the the Dodging Defence (Outer Ring), the impact inflicts an additional -1 off-balance penalty on attacks and defences. (As the off-balance penalty, this penalty last one round).
Fluid Riposte: A smooth transition from parrying an attack to a counterstrike.
0/1/0 0/0/0
When you successfully deflect a melee attack during a turn using your Blocking defence, you gain a +2 on your Cuting attack next turn (in accordance with the Parry Mechanism, you use the style with which you defended one turn on attack the next). The +2 bonus is on top of the +1 bonus this Special Manoeuvre applies to this style.
For Soresu I am blatantly stealing mercury's idea cause i like it.
Shien: When you successfully deflect a blaster bolt or similar projectile from an opponent and are not surpassed on any defensive ring (by any opponent), you gain a terrain bonus against the opponent firing the bolt or projectile (and only them) which grants a +1 bonus to all attacks, taking effect from next turn onwards. This bonus does not stack with other terrain bonuses, but does not require an action to acquire.
1/0/0 0/0/0
Brend » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:05 pm
RemcoSwenker wrote:Prerequisites: Jedi, Soresu style
Shouldn't Shien be in there as well? Something along the lines of "Prerequisites: Jedi, Soresu style with Shien manoeuvre".
Brend » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:22 pm
Mercury » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:23 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
Looks great, though I have three comments / hints / suggestions:
I liked the 1/1/1 2/3/4 better because the advantage of Djem So over Soresu is less absolute that way - 2/3/4 gives the defensive advantage to Soresu even without manoeuvres, which makes sense considering that the Djem So developers wanted a more aggressive style.
What would also help in this area is to give Shien, which was after all developed specifically for blaster bolts, a bonus in Deflection (0/0/0 0/0/1) instead of Slashing (1/0/0 0/0/0). Thats different from my original suggestion, but I think it fits better that way with the story we have there.
The Barrier of Blades would be clearer if it stated "in addition to the regular bonus listed below". (See Soresu: Deflecting Slash)
I'd also add a note for Soresu: Shien that it gives access to Djem So, maybe in italics or something - this gives additional clarity
I liked the 1/1/1 2/3/4 better because the advantage of Djem So over Soresu is less absolute that way - 2/3/4 gives the defensive advantage to Soresu even without manoeuvres, which makes sense considering that the Djem So developers wanted a more aggressive style.
What would also help in this area is to give Shien, which was after all developed specifically for blaster bolts, a bonus in Deflection (0/0/0 0/0/1) instead of Slashing (1/0/0 0/0/0). Thats different from my original suggestion, but I think it fits better that way with the story we have there.
The Barrier of Blades would be clearer if it stated "in addition to the regular bonus listed below". (See Soresu: Deflecting Slash)
I'd also add a note for Soresu: Shien that it gives access to Djem So, maybe in italics or something - this gives additional clarity
Brend » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:33 pm
We agree.
Thought we only changed the style base to 1/1/1 2/3/4 after much debate: we didn't like the piercing at first, but as this is a tier two saber style, it should offer at least some offence on all rings. The lowered dodge is fine, as this style is not about getting out of the way. It is about being up in someone's business, whacking him with righteous slashes!
Thought we only changed the style base to 1/1/1 2/3/4 after much debate: we didn't like the piercing at first, but as this is a tier two saber style, it should offer at least some offence on all rings. The lowered dodge is fine, as this style is not about getting out of the way. It is about being up in someone's business, whacking him with righteous slashes!
Mercury » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:44 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
Looks excellent now! As far as I am concerned we can start using this right way, so if nobody objects to it, I won't come back to officially approve it, as you may already consider it to be just that. Yay, new style!
Elmer » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:51 pm
Hurray for this wonderful new style :D
*Hurray* *Hurray* *Hurray*
*Hurray* *Hurray* *Hurray*
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