[ Senate ] Cyborgs and Virtual People

Political roleplay at the highest level. Senate discussions, votes and high-level negotiations.
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Senator Afra Mesti Vanlind of Komès Lady Peinaili de Montrève
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Nehket Aeka
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Senator Jothe Sias
Mercury
Senator Acehtoo of the Miomanian Colonists Senator Mathi-ey C'b'rton of the Divine Fiefdom of Highmons Former Senator Bolv'ar of the Confederacy of Excaria
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Senator Danar Tassar
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Senator Afra Mesti Vanlind of Komès
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"My fellow Senators,

In this week two new members have joined the Union, the Limëan Republic and the Teprogrenaian Consensus. These nations were welcomed by the Chancellor, but I am forced to question the sincerity of her words!"

She paused, looking at the chancellor, but continuing before anyone could interrupt.

"The Teprogrenaian Consensus have a deep bond with machines, to the point where they integrate them into their own bodies. Yet the Miomanians oppose this practice on principle. On there worlds there are active aid programs, sponsored by the Miomanian government, to 'cure' cyborgs, rip out their machine parts and build new flesh in it's place with their Bacta.

The Divine Fiefdom of Highmons meanwhile opposes droids and all artificial life, believing them to be an affront to their creators. The same creators worshipped by the Holy Heimgolian Theocracy!"

She looked around.

"At this current time Mioman and her supporters in Highmons and Heimgol do not recognise the rights of non-biological life, enslaving droids as property and failing to recognise the sentience of advanced machines. Yet at the same time they claim to welcome our new members.

How can they welcome these new nations on one side, but at the same time revile their peoples? Mioman believe that the Fecta are broken and in need of repair! Heimgol believes the Limëan Transcendent are misguided. And Highmons believes they are a direct affront to their gods and the ultimate form of evil!

You cannot on one side claim droids are the source of all evil and attempt to "cure" cyborgs while at the same time claim to welcome nations who's people consider mechanical additions a form of perfection or which have abandoned their physical bodies for machines altogether!

The Chancellor and her ministers needs to explain themselves and I believe they owe our new members more than that explanation: they owe them a formal apology!"
Post Nehket Aeka » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:00 am
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Nehket Aeka
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Senator Nehket Aeka, the minster of defence, discretely opens a text-only communication to the Chancellor on her personal interface: She is not known for her accuracy or temper, but I have to ask: is this accusation true? And if so; are cyborgs given a choice in the matter?
Post Senator Jothe Sias » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:14 pm
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Senator Jothe Sias
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After a short while, after senator Afra Mesti Vanlind of Komès finished his speech, Jothe Sias replied:

"From what I heard, the Heimgol and the Highmons both have interesting philosophies, and the Limëan philosophers are of course more than happy to discuss these ethical matters. I can not speak for them, though, because I do not have the proper knowledge to be able to debate this topic. Furthermore, I think these discussions must be kept outside of political discussions, for this is not the place for esoteric matters."

Jothe Sias waited until the noise of the senate had settled and then continued:

"In addition, it is my opinion that the Heimgol and the Highmons do not need to apologize, because they are not wrong by opposing artificial lifeforms. I do not say they are right, but I say that everybody has his own right to choose his own form of philosophy or theology. It is more important that they are true to their believes, even if those believes dictate that we are 'the ultimate form of evil'. It is always important that they are consequent and that they are unreserved about this."
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Senator Acehtoo of the Miomanian Colonists
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"The people of Mioman do not consider cyborgs to be broken individuals."

The Chancellor spoke calmly, taking her time to explain.

"Those for whom we grow new flesh using Bacta receive this treatment because they have asked for it. They feel broken, so we help them to restore their bodies. If a cyborg is happy the way they are, of course they are free to remain cyborgs, though I will admit our doctors advise against this.

You must keep in mind that the Limëans are much more skilled in the construction of Cybernetics than the Miomanian Colonies. Our cybernetics are crude, useful in an emergency but not a long term solution and our people adjust badly to cybernetics, never gaining control of them in the way the Limëans do."
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Senator Mathi-ey C'b'rton of the Divine Fiefdom of Highmons
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"My fellow senators,"

The senator spoke softly and humbly as if not wanting to stir up more dust than strictly necessary.

"Our religious leaders debated this matter before. We believe that every individual is valuable, whether they are unharmed, handicapped or have received medical assistance, including cybernetics or regrown body parts and while we advocate acceptance of misfortune, we do not begrudge those who try to overcome it with the aid of machines or technology.

What we oppose is the attempted creation of souls, which should be left to the divine. Thus, we merely oppose the use of droids and artificial intelligence as attempts to create artificial souls."
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Former Senator Bolv'ar of the Confederacy of Excaria
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"Senator Sias, your words are wise and humble, but I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you..."

Senator Bolv'ar was an unexpected party to stand up here.

"I certainly believe that we should be able to agree to disagree on certain matters. However, having worked with the Chancellor and Ministers from Heimgol and Highmons, I have seen their opposition to the construction of droid armies, based on the argument that such constructs are immoral and cannot be trusted.

The only reason they agreed to using droids in the Union armies and fleets at all was because they would rather see ten machines be destroyed than one life lost.

As members, the Limëans have a right to be defended by the Union fleets as all other members. The question as to whether the Chancellor and her religiously active ministers would sacrifice the lives of fully biological Union soldiers to save the lives of a people whom are partially or even entirely machine is not one that can be ignored.

As I understand it, many of the Limëan Transcendent have not had biological bodies for thousands of years. Which brings up the question, where exactly is the line drawn between artificial and natural life?

I do not generally agree with Senator Afra on strategy, nor do I always like her style of debating, but the point she raises here is valid and should be debated to ensure there are no false expectations on any side."
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Senator Acehtoo of the Miomanian Colonists
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"Senator Sias, perhaps it would help if you gave us more explanation about the nature of your race?"

The Chancellor moved quickly, but Senator Bolv'ar did not seem entirely pleased that the point he had raised was passed by so quickly.
Post Senator Jothe Sias » Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:12 am
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Senator Jothe Sias
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"Of course, Chancellor", Jothe Sias replied - still friendly smiling - after a while, "our faction consists of two subfactions. One of the subfactions, the Caltulist faction - of which I am a member myself -, has abandoned all organic life and exists purely in a virtual state. The other faction however still relies on their organic bodies and are contained in small cabins which are connected to their part of the link. So not only is there still life on our planet Colindo, there is even organic life. Furthermore, we also once had our own organic bodies, so we are not the artificial creations to who the ministers might oppose. The only remaining objection are thus the droids, which we need in order to maintain our servers. But these are mainly machines with purely analytical skills and skills regarding the repairing of the servers, so by far not attempts to simulate real lifeforms. I hope that this explanation suffices?" the senator ended with a raising voice and then looked around.
Post Nehket Aeka » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:55 am
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Nehket Aeka
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"As the current minister of defence, I think Senator Bolv'ar raises a valid point. A point which we can not pass over so quickly", started Senator Nehket Aeka.

"When the Limëan Republic joined the Union, we were all aware of their existence as virtual beings. At that point, no objections were made. They were quickly followed by the Teprogrenaian Consensus, whose population consists partly of cyborgs. Again, no objections have been voiced.

As such, both the Limëan Republic and the Teprogrenaian Consensus are members of the Union. This means that, regardless of the personal feelings or beliefs, an attack on one of our members is an attack on us all; and all such attacks will be met in the same way, regardless of the form of existence of our members."

She paused for a moment, to let her words sink in.

"As the Senator of the Veolian Commonwealth, I would like to inform you of the position of the Veolian Commonwealth on these matters.

We do not see a problem with cybernetic implements, as long as these restrict themselves to a phenotypical level. However, cybernetic implements should be used to restore lost biological functionality, not to improve the quality of oneself beyond the biological. However, it is our experience that the difference between restoring or improving the biological is difficult to asses. That which is called a cybernetic implant by one is easily called equipment by another. In this light, the Teprogrena focus on cybernetics can be explained as a drive to perfect ones equipement; a hallmark of intelligent and civilized life.

We are not ideologically opposed to the existence of artificial life derived from biological life, be it through the uploading of ones conscience into a virtual world, or through the construction of highly advanced droids that mimic biological concepts. However, while we accept the choice of the Limëans in this, we find it difficult to see purely virtual existence as a desirable life. Such a state of being prevents the evolution of a species genetics, and through this contributes to its devolution and downfall."
Post Senator Danar Tassar » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:33 pm
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Senator Danar Tassar
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Location: Unity
Representative Tassar decided he had something to say, so he texted Senator Nehket Aeka to request permission to speak: "I think I should make a statement about the politics of our faction, before people are jumping to conclusions. Can you grand me permission to speak?"
Post Nehket Aeka » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:18 pm
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Nehket Aeka
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A few moments after receiving the text message from Representative Danar Tassar, the Veolian senator spoke to the senate.

"But, before we jump to conclusions, let us hear the position of all involved. I am sure that it is best to hear about their way of life first-hand.

I would like to give the floor to Representative Danar Tassar, of the Teprogrenaian Consensus."
Post Senator Danar Tassar » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:00 pm
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Senator Danar Tassar
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Location: Unity
As soon he was announced, Representative Tassar stood up from the outer circles of the senate for his speech.

“Dear Senators”, He spoke and made a polite gesture to the people of the inner circle, “Fellow Representatives”, followed by a polite gesture to the people in the outer circle of the senate.

“My people do not use the cybernetic implants to improve themselves. We use the implants merely as a medical tool. When one of our citizens has health problems, he or she gets the opportunity to receive cybernetic implants. I must admit that the threshold before the use of the implants is very low, and that, even if a biological medical solution is at hand, most of our people still choose for cybernetic implants. We also try to make efficient use of the implants if the opportunity presents itself. As a result of this our people, and the Fecta in particularly, can have certain benefits. However these are only beneficial effects of the medical treatment, not the intention of the treatment.”

He looked around shortly to make sure everybody understands. As this seemed the case, Tassar continued:

“My race procreates at a relative slow pace, so we need all the teprogrena that might live. This includes the unborn ones, who would be denied living otherwise. If we do not let their mothers and fathers have a baby simply because they are ‘inferior’ to the rest of the race, we would have too little people to expand our race. We even let the people with a social disorder live for the simple reason that those people tend to have not much children or no children at all. Resulting in only a small amount of people who are deemed ‘not beneficial’ for our society.”

This statement seemed to cause some tumult among the senators. Tassar continued without hesitation to force the senators to listen to everything the representative of the Teprogrenaian Consensus had to tell.

“Then of course is there still the ethical aspect of the discussion. Every faction should be able to have an opinion on its own, and should not judge the other members of the union according to their own beliefs. So I like to state the point of view of my people for clarification about why we do what we do.”
His immediate continuation calmed the senate hall down.

“The use of cybernetic implants is called unnatural, to be against that what the gods have given us, and against that what hundreds of thousands to millions of years of evolution has achieved. But then the question arises: Why is it against the laws of nature or a supernatural entity? Or actually, why would cybernetic implants be against nature while medical regeneration is not? Both methods are a means to the same end, and ultimately both are applications of technology. With technological intervention, the death of a fatally wounded person is avoided so he can continue to live. Following the rules of nature, he or she would perish.
My people believe that the question of cybernetic implants being ethically acceptable or not is only a question arises from the natural evolvement of fear of all that is uncommon. It is not a shame, it is not wrong, it simply is there.

So the true question about cybernetics should be about the ethical acceptance of reviving wounded people at all, with or without medical intervention. The teprogrena believe that if we have the means to save people, one way or another, then we should do it because we can detect no irreversible problems which would cause the extinction of my race.

As for the individuals, they have a free choice in the matter. They can choose to stay Danar, become Fecta, or refuse treatment and perish. Only a few of our people choose to stay Danar or to perish. Because although we do see the unnaturalness of cybernetic implants, we decided that it is equal to bacta treatment or transplantation and therefore the implants are not bad or unethical.”

Representative Tassar waited shortly before going back to his place to let the words sink in.
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Senator Acehtoo of the Miomanian Colonists
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"Thank you for your detailed explanation Representative." The Chancellor nodded to Danar Tassar a moment. "The point of what constitutes life and what does not is a complicated one, and one I believe that cannot be answered in the political arena.

I would propose that a meeting of intellectuals from different worlds be set up to debate this issue and help formulate a definition. Within the Union we have various different points of view, but with that as a backing, we can ensure fair adjudication should the different insights cause problems.

However, before any such plans are given form, let me say that I believe Senator Bolv'ar is justified in demanding a clear answer. To give that answer, I will quote from the Alliance Declaration, the military agreement between Union members, specifically article 5.

Alliance Declaration, Article 5
An attack on any member of the Union is considered an attack on all members of the Union and on the Union itself.


As Chancellor, and as representative of Mioman, we stand behind those words and we note that whether or not we agree on the definition of life, we can surely agree on the definition of an attack. As Chancellor, I will not hesitate to respond to any attack on the Union and its members and I am certain Senator Nehket Aeka will respond with the full force of the Union military should this unthinkable scenario take place. In that, she will have our full support."
Post Senator Danar Tassar » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:41 pm
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Senator Danar Tassar
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Location: Unity
During the quiet period followed by the words of the chancellor Tassar quickly opened a text only link to the Teprogrenaian Consensus. His message was short and quick and the answer followed directly. Then he stood up again to announce that his government was willing to house the conference, if that was required.

“The Teprogreanaian Consensus is willing to make our world available for the conference. However we do believe it to be inappropriate to talk about live on a location where nearly half of the population are considered dead or abominations by some other factions. But it at the other hand, it might help in creating more insight in our society. And therefore bring in a special contribution to the discussion.”
Post Nehket Aeka » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:40 am
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Nehket Aeka
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"I want to thank Representative Tassar for his generous offer of hospitality.

The Veolian Commonwealth will send a delegation to this summit."

After her closing statement, Senator Nehket Aeka left the senate hall to attend to other matters.
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Senator Mathi-ey C'b'rton of the Divine Fiefdom of Highmons
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"The Divine Fiefdom of Highmons accepts the generous offer of the Teprogrenaian Consensus."

It was a short message, but given the Divine Fiefdom of Highmons was likely the strongest in their opposition, it at least hinted that the will to seek a better understanding was there.
Post Lady Peinaili de Montrève » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:16 pm
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Lady Peinaili de Montrève
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" This subject is a difficult one, " the Lady de Montrève stated,

" But this is one that surely has the attention of the Sundarian Government. We shall therefore accept the offer of the Teprogrenaian Consensus and sent a delegation to attend this conference. "

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