Fwurg

[Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima]

"Senators, I have recently looked at some older laws the Union has made in the past.

During this process I discovered that in it's current form, it is impossible to qualify for the Turn 17 Subsidies Law. Point three of article two states that the purchased must be of a lower price then the price of on the open market in order to qualify for the subsidy.

However, since the Special Goods Regulation Act went into effect, Mass Transit Cargo Freighters are no longer sold on the open market. In order to clean up this oversight one of these laws needs to be adjusted.

The way I see it there are two possibilities to solve this problem.

The first is to amend the Turn 17 Subsidies Law by removing point three of article two. This is the simplest option and this will keep the current situation intact. However it may be more beneficial to amend the Special Goods Regulation Act instead.

The Special Goods Regulation Act was established to increase the safety of the Union. It does this by ensuring Capitol ships are not sold to factions that may use them against the Union or that flaws in any purchased goods, either by mistake or intent, do not threaten the lives of Union citizens. While it has done this effectively over the course of time, it has also prevented possible opportunities to be exploited. I believe these two are not mutually exclusive.

Which leads me to the second option. By removing the restriction of , , , and we can sell surpluses of these goods to the open market so they can still yield a small profit. Replacing this with a minimum quality standard on these goods, that the Union would enforce, would allow worlds to buy these goods from the open market without having to worry about possible defects or sabotage of the goods. I believe it is best to keep the selling or buying Capitol ships from the open market or factions outside the Union should remain prohibited. These ships are simply to dangerous to allow this.

To further improve the safety of our citizens I propose we add to the prohibited goods list. These goods are very dangerous and large quantities could be used to supply armies or build warships. I believe it would be ill advised to allow free trading of such dangerous goods.

I would like to discuss these option with you, hear your thoughts on my proposed solutions. Or propose your own. When the discussion is finished I will ask the chancellor to open a vote to correct this mistake."

[Nehket Aeka]

After waiting for a moment to see if someone else reacted, Aeka spoke to the senate.

"I would like to thank the minister of Foreign Affairs for his careful analysis of the situation. I agree that something ought to be done about the Turn 17 Subsidies Law. It's current ambiguous state is not useful, and it pains me to say that I have let this matter slip during the previous election period."

"In fact, the Veolian Commonwealth noticed this situation earlier, in 102, when we contacted the ministry of Justice about this paradoxical situation. However, we did not take action at that moment because the senate should not be burdened with such administrative changes when we are on the brink of a war."

She looked around the senate.

"In turn 102, the ministry of Justice ruled the condition III of the Turn 17 subsidies law is null and void while the Special Goods Regulation Act is in effect. I will share with you the pertinent full correspondence with the Ministry of Justic."

An aide of Aeka quickly made the correspondence available by sharing it with the other members of the senate.


"As you can see, the matter for which a discussion is called has already been resolved. Of course, I do not hold this against lord-senator Doshima, after all, he is the minister of Foreign Affairs. And the ministry of Foreign Affairs does not count these laws in its purview."

"I feel it might be better for the senate and the cabinet to focus on the promised, and hopefully upcoming, discussion on the basic declaration of sentient rights.

I propose that instead of wasting the senate's time on discussing this already settled administrative matter, we leave the matter in the capable hands of grand bureaucrat Ght'Twwf in his capacity as Minister of Commerce. In fact, it might be good if he institutes a committee to review the current laws for other such administrative incorrectness. In the future, it might be good if a volunteer committee of reviewers is appointed with the task of checking proposed legislation for such mistakes."

[Senator Ardios Eldrilith]

"We are in favour of exploring your second option Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima.

We agree that there is a precedent to look into these laws that were established during the war and have a unintended effect.

We believe that in the current political climate these restrictions are unrealistic. Furthermore they were actually intended for capital ships, we should limit it to that.

We agree that a decisive vote is the correct matter to resolve this inconsistency."

[Nehket Aeka]

"Senator Eldrilith, could you inform the senate about the precedent you refer to?

As far as I know there is no available precedent for fixing a small administrative mistake with a far-reaching change of another law."

[Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima]

"I would hardly classify this as 'a small administrative mistake' Senator Nehket. An error that invalidates an entire law is no small matter in my opinion.

Furthermore this stopped being an administrative matter when you requested a stop of subsidies to another Union member.

The fact the error has yet to be corrected clearly shows this matter is not yet settled."

[Atheos]

"Senator Kachiso Doshima, I quote from the ruling of the ministry of Justice that Senator Nehket Aeka referred to

"This effectively means that condition III of the Turn 17 subsidies law is null and void while the Special Goods Regulation Act is in effect."

The law itself is still in effect, it is not invalidated. The law at that time was ambiguous but has since been resolved by the ministry of Justice. With the removal of condition III of the Turn 17 subsidies law the act will once again work as intended, except that there is now no price ceiling to be enforced by the open market. This was an intended effect of the Special Goods Regulation Act, as such there are no errors or problems."

[Senator Shahkra of the Federal Republic of Bisidn]

"I agree that, although the matter of turn 17 subsidies law is legally solved, it is best to look into the law and adjust in such a way that it is no longer ambiguous."

[Senator Danar Tassar]

"We of the Teprogrenaian Consensus agree to reopen the discussion around the turn 17 subsidies law.

On a more important note, we think it is best to keep the open market closed for all of the special products. By providing these products to the market, not only will it remain too easy for producers to sneak defects into the products, regulations or not, it also provides the overall risk of having these potential dangerous products to hostile members of our society. Take a lucrehulk superfreighter. Some armour plating and canons and you have a battleship capable of going head to head with a frigate. Of course we understand that a Lucrehulk is a bit of a far fetched example for smaller factions like pirates, but it is not that hard for pirates to transform a cargo freighter into a combat freighter. Especially when they only need to be is stronger than a civilian freighter. And we hope we don't have to explain what could happen when terraformation modules end up into the wrong hands.

This is why we think it is a good idea to ban the weapons from the open market as well. We all know the havoc which can be caused by these weapons, when there was a run on them during the war."

[Senator Harek]

"The Hiocan Society agrees with Senator Shahkra and believes that all laws should be clear."

[Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima]

"Senator Tassar, do you realise that by prohibiting weapon sales to the open market the scenario you describe becomes nigh impossible?

And while this might go for MTCFs, most other special products are not usable in such a way to my knowledge."

[Senator Danar Tassar]

"Lord Senator Kachiso Doshima, how do you think Extreme crevasses, and deep polar melting is achieved during terraformation? People with bad intentions don't need too much experience to abuse machines intended for those purposes. Combined with a freighter and once again there is a dangerous vehicle with a high damage and death potential."

[Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima]

"And is it usual for the Teprogrenaian Consensus to let 'people with bad intentions' terraform your world, Senator? Who would be these people to just be allowed to terraform your world?

Both proposals still require some responsibility by worlds in order to function properly. But, of course, you are free to vote for another option, Senator Tassar. I merely am trying to clarify matters so your world can make the best decision on what to vote.

If there are no further questions or proposals I will ask the chancellor to open the vote soon."

((OOC: If no objections, questions or proposals are made I will open the vote on 30-01-2015.))

[Nehket Aeka]

"Minister, I think there are at least two points that have not been discussed to the satisfaction of the senate. Let me elaborate on two of them."


"You propose to regulate the trade of and at the same time open up the trade of , , , and .

Regulation of the Open Market is easy for special goods, as they are not easily smuggled into the Union due to their size and characteristic sensor footprint. This in turn, keeps the costs of enforcing such a prohibition low. Now, you propose to open up the open market for these goods, and replacing the simple and cheap measure of complete prohibition by "a minimum quality standard on these goods, that the Union would enforce". But you have not yet informed the senate how this regulation is going to be enforced.

Enforcing a minimum quality standard is not free, minister. This would entail drafting quality standards, the execution of quality checks at import ports, and the hiring of many experts in the required fields of industry to actually do the quality assurances. How does the cabinet plan on paying for these additional measures?

And of course, due to their more manageable sizes smuggling weapons is much easier than smuggling special goods. So, once again, enforcing the ban on trading weapons will require costly enforcement in the form of additional patrols and cargo scanning at space ports. How is the cabinet going to pay for these additional patrols?

Do you plan on increasing taxes to cover these costs? Or, alternatively, do you plan to have those that buy the regulated goods from the Open Market pay for these costs?

Let's not forget that you started this discussion by, correctly, pointing out a small incongruity in the laws. Your solution is the, in my opinion unrelated proposal, reaction of opening up the Open Market to "yield a small profit". If you propose to solve this matter by incurring great costs to the Union, and thus the tax-payers themselves, I think that these costs should be detailed before the vote is opened. Especially since I am not convinced that your "small profit" actually outweighs the additional costs of keeping the Union safe."


"Ans secondly, in your zeal to correct the administrative matter in the Turn 17 Subsidies law by going through with this significant change to the security of the Union's citizens at the expense of the tax-payers' money, we are forgetting to explore other alternatives: if you only want to open up the Open Market to "yield a small profit", might it not be better to amend the Special Goods Regulation Act to allow the sale of Special Products, while still retaining the safety of not allowing the import of said products?"

((OOC: I do think that the costs of these quality regulation can not be hand-waved as 'very small'. Doing actual quality checks is much more expensive than simply banning all trade. The same goes for declaring a complete class of goods , the , illegal goods. Countering the suddenly very profitable smuggling is going to cost actual ... It might be useful to ask a neutral third party (for example: Mercury) to judge the cost proposal you post to the OOC boards?))

[Atheos]

"I would like to add that the Astai Republic is strongly against any regulation that includes "increasing taxes" any further!"

[Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima]

"An excellent point Senator Nehket. The answer is quite simple.

The minimum standard is determined by the experts we have available right here. Those being the various worlds that produce these Special Goods. By issuing licences to the sellers that meet this standard and refusing access to the open market to anyone trying to sell these special products without a licence we keep the control simple. Costs would be kept to a minimum this way and can be further reduced by asking a compensation for the licence, that can then be used to enforce it.

Alternatively, your proposal to allow the only the selling of , , , and to the Open Market sounds reasonable. I will add it to the voting options."

((OOC: I believe a licensing system would make it much easier to enforce. I don't think it would require extensive costs to do it like that. As for your point on , Keep in mind there are different weapon types. True small arms are easy to hide. But AT-ATs also fall under the category and those are a lot harder to keep hidden. We could ask Mercury for his opinion, however him being very busy, could delay a reply for some time.))

[Nehket Aeka]

"I am afraid I do not understand how a licensing-based enforcement system would reduce costs."

"Do you expect the suppliers of these goods to magically adhere to the quality standard they received a license for? In this system, regular quality checks and enforcement would still be needed. The only cost reduction I see as a one-time reduction by attaching a fee to the licenses. Given the nature of the Open Market, and the numerous smaller business trading on it, the fee paid to receive a license would either have to be very high to offset the enforcement costs -- effectively closing the Open Market for that good -- or be so low that it would not really impact the costs of enforcing the quality."

"Your proposal sounds good on paper, but in reality the issueing of a license offers very little value to the enforcement process. Could you explain how you envision the licensing process and the fees associated with it?"

((OOC: I think that a proposal for Mercury to look over wouldn't be bad. I don't think it will be a lot of (in the order of 20 per for the Union (which is 1 per member roughly)), or we could even calculate it into a higher price on the OM -- a small proposal would be nice ^_^))

[Senator Danar Tassar]

"Lord Senator Kachiso Doshima, regarding the question you asked us, we don't believe we really follow your line of thoughts. Of course we wouldn't allow people with bad intentions to terraform our worlds. That is why we want to keep the terraformation modules to be banned from the open market. Otherwise some party might think one of our, the Union, worlds is better of with extreme crevasses if we don't do the parties bidding.

That is why we of the Consensus think that allowing the special goods to be sold on the open market is not the best option. If the goods can be sold, than they obviously can be bought, which brings us back to the point where potential pirates can obtain fleets and weapons from the open market to raid our, the Union, trade fleets."

((OOC: I think that it is logical that these kind of special regulations should have a little cost. This will create more feeling and immersion in the game IMO. Even though we didn't do this really before, it is nice to start doing now :). 1 per world sounds good.))

[Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima]

"Very well senator Nehket, I will research the costs of the proposal and include a fair finance proposal for it in the vote.

Senator Tassar, I am sure you are aware that terraformation is no small operation. It is impossible to be done without the world it is performed on noticing beforehand. You would be well within your rights to stop the people trying to perform it, by force if necessary. In fact, I would be surprised if other Union members wouldn't offer their assistance should it happen. A government has the obligation to keep their people safe, senator. If people can just terraform your worlds if they have terraformation modules, would your government not be neglecting that obligation?"

((OOC: Is 20 really considered an adequate price for this proposal, or is this just a number pulled out of your ass? I would like to know because if not research needs to be done.))

[Nehket Aeka]

((OOC: Though the number is roughly pulled from my ass, Mercury concurred that it shouldn't be much higher. I still suggest you look into the situation yourself though, especially because the other option is to place the burden of expenses on the buyers on the OM only -- by effectively increasing the prices on the OM. Which route you choose has an IC impact...))

[Senator Danar Tassar]

"It appears that the point we of the Consensus are trying to make is not adequately coming through, so let us say it in plain simple words: Terraforming is done by brute force. Extreme crevasses are made by heavy explosions. Terrorists can use these terrifying bombs to threaten the citizens of Union members.

Atmospheric effects are created by shooting ionized toxic gasses into the atmosphere, devises used for shooting ionized gasses are also known as plasma weapons which are used to destroy space ships. Pirates can abuse these products by attaching them to freighters and assault freighter convoys.

Lord Senator Kachiso Doshima, how is it that you want to restrict weapons on the open market, but when you increase its potential and put the label 'terraformation' on it, it is fine to use it?

We of the Consensus think is it a great idea to ban weapons from the open market and are willing to pay for the insurance they are banned, but lets not negate the issue by changing the label, we think we of the senate can all agree that that is just plain stupid."

[Lord-Senator Kachiso Doshima]

The Astrian Senator listened to the argument made by Senator Danar Tassar. Only instead of replying to him, he turned to the Veolian Senator.

"Senator Nehket, I believe the Veolian Commonwealth has expertise in terraformation? Is it true terraformation is done by brute force, as Senator Tassar claims? Are the Terraformation Modules, such as the ones regularly sold by the Veolian Commonwealth, little more then explosives and plasma canons? Because I was under the impression that most terraformation was done by relatively benign compounds, micro-organisms and chemicals. I would like to know, because I believe Senator Tassar has received wrong information."

The Astrian Minister turned back to the Teprogrenaian Senator.

"Or do you mean to imply the Union Fleets are not capable of protecting the Union from pirates or other threats? And if so why have you not raised this point with the Senate before? I am certain I do not need to inform you of the seriousness of that suggestion. Because I deem that suggestion alone worthy to suspend this entire discussion until that has been solved adequately. The security of the Union is of far greater importance then the solution to a conflicting law we are currently discussing."

Kachiso Doshima looked intently at Senator Tassar, clearly not amused by the underlying suggestion the Senators words had.

((OOC: T_T This discussion is going on far longer then I anticipated. Lot of fun tough. :D))

[Lady Peinaili de Montrève]

The Sundarian senator had followed the discussed thus far but had refrained from interjecting her opinion on the matter. But the statement made by Senator Danar Tassar and the subsequent response from Senator Doshima probed her to interject and offer her view on the matter.

"Senator Doshima, I'm sure my Veolian colleague will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that there is truth in Senator Tassar's statement regarding terraformation modules. We must not forget that terraforming a planet is a very delicate undertaking with requires the application of specialized technology, and a specific plan which is made based on research in order to assess how to improve certain conditions on a specific world. There are many factors involved and it is my view that this progress in no way comparable to the relatively simple production of weapons.

However if these modules were used by parties and applied to a world without sufficient understanding of the technology and research on the specific conditions on that world, one would create a catastrophic event, which may well destroy the world and impact the entire solar system in which the world is located. I would consider that a weapon.

The same holds for Senator Tassar's reasoning that even though terraformation is done by relatively benign compounds, micro-organisms and chemicals, they are still introduced in an alien ecosystem with the intend to permanently alter, in order words irreversibly eradicate and/or change, said ecosystem. This could be considered an event of mass destruction, and there has the same power as certain types of weapons."

Peinaili paused for a moment to consider her next line of arguments before continuing,

"I therefore believe it best to keep the sale of , , , , , restricted since a similar reasoning can be presented for all special goods. By regulating their sale through Union-member only, we prevent the added risk to Union security, which should reduce the overall cost and increase the time our fleets and security personnel can spend on other lines of inquiry, such as piracy patrol and smuggling.

With , given there are many different types and they have different uses, I feel that generally regulating the sale of all is a bridge to far. This would mean that even our ordinary kitchenknives become regulated goods, no longer available on a farmers market. The impact on our economies would be immense, which is something I believe is not the intend of Union laws."

[Nehket Aeka]

"Lady de Montrève explains it most eloquently. The process of terraformation is one of subtlety and finesse, yet it is also a dramatic change to a world's ecosystem.

While it is true that a lot of the processes involved operate through less direct means than senator Tassar makes it appear, this makes them even more dangerous. I do not fear for the scenario where a group of terrorists gets their hands on a few and tries to repurpose them as bombs -- with those alone they can at best create a slight annoyance or irritation in the weather patterns of a world.

The specific scenario presented by senator Tassar, the misuse of modules intended to create extreme crevasses, is doomed to fail for any would-be attacker. Most processes that affect a world's core or continents work through tectonic micro-manipulations; the modules for each stage of the process have to be perfectly calibrated to operate in unison with each other... Fail-safes and redundancies are in place to prevent any faulty or misaligned module from interfering with the process."

Senator Nehket Aeka looked over the assembled senate.

"Unfortunately there is another method of attack, one that is extremely dangerous. While a world undergoes an ecosystems terraformation process, especially the bulk of the atmosphere processes and the introduction of natural life, we make use of microbes specifically tailored to the world's unique situation. If an attacker can insert a small number modules with maliciously engineered microbes into the process, these could quickly overtake the normal process and start a runaway process leading to an extinction-level event.

Our experts take care during the design that no combination of our processes and modules has enough impact on the global process to overtake it. But if a world opts for buying a certain amount of from the open market they would be opening themselves up to an attack of this magnitude. Of course, it is unlikely that a group of terrorists has the expertise and equipment to modify enough modules, but there are larger factions in the galaxy that can support such terrorist plots.

This is also the reason that the Veolian Commonwealth does not endorse any terraformation project where from external parties is used. Even though the chance of such an attack is low, the costs are too high to risk it."