Fwurg

[Senator Mathi-ey C'b'rton of the Divine Fiefdom of Highmons]

"As Minister of Justice, I was asked by Chancellor Acehtoo to handle a delicate disagreement between two of our most valued members, the Lifebringer Clans and the Praetorian Empire."

The Senator spoke in a clear but soft voice, a slight but friendly smile on her lips.

"First of all, I want to commend both members for seeking a neutral party in their disagreement swiftly and decisively and for allowing this matter to be handled as quickly as possible.

The issue before us is the appropriate use of Union funds, specifically regarding the subsidies on Mass Transit Cargo Freighters.

The Lifebringer Clans have already explained their point of view to the Ministry of Finance by means of private correspondence, but to ensure clarity, I would like to ask them to repeat one more time how they see the matter here so that it may be officially recorded as part of this public inquiry.

I am also interested in the position of the Praetorian Empire and of the Unified Republic of Darya and the Veolian Commonwealth, as they are also mentioned in the financial records.

Naturally if any other members of the Union have an opinion, we are all open to hear their views as well and I wish to encourage discussion amongst all parties to promote the dialogue.

Finally, I want to note that this is not a criminal investigation, nor is it a trial! For now, we are simply trying to establish how different parties look at the new laws and what, if anything, may have caused any misunderstandings between parties and how these may be corrected. Only if evidence of foul play were to turn up would this turn into an investigation. At this time, no such evidence has been presented."

[Senator Ardios Eldrilith]

Dear Senators,

Here are the facts that can be confirmed by the Veolian Commonwealth and the Republic of Darya:
We have produced 206 , these 206 are all sold to the Veolian Commonwealth where they claim the subsidy.
Second we have bought 52 from the Republic of Darya where we claimed the subsidy.
Additionally 5 of these 52 were sold to the Veolian Commonwealth because they requested to receive x11 so they would not have anymore half completed trade fleets.
There are no double claimed subsidies.

Greetings,
Ardios Eldrilith, Senator of the Praetorian Empire.

[The Lifebringer Clans]

Dear Senators,

To avoid any misunderstandings, let us begin by stating that we trust in the good faith of all participants in the MTCF transactions under discussion. Our objective is to resolve what we believe to be an ambiguity in the law, not to attack any nation involved in the event that brought this ambiguity to our attention.

The crux of the matter is that we have a different interpretation of the 17 trading activities of the Praetorian Empire than the one the Praetorian Senator just explained. Our reports indicate that the Praetorian Empire produced 206 on 17. Of this, 47 were used to increase their own trade fleet capacity. The remaining 159 were sold to the Veolian Commonwealth. They then purchased an additional 52 from Darya, and sold these to the Veolian Commonwealth. The Praetorian Empire claimed the subsidy for these 52 , while the Veolians have claimed the subsidy for 47 of these as well.

Using the Praetorian version of events, the law was followed. Using our version, the Veolian Commonwealth has collected a subsidy over 47 that were produced by the Republic of Darya, and not the Praetorian Empire. We believe both interpretations of the situation are possible, and the law is therefore ambiguous.

[Nehket Aeka]

Without any hint of emotion on her face, Senator Nehket Aeka reacted to the explanation by the Lifebringer Clans: "Normally we would not accept anyone insinuating that the Veolian Commonwealth operates in an dishonourable and fraudulent manner. And putting this under the name of an ambiguity in law does not lessen the insult. However, with the interests of the Union in mind we will cooperate with this inquiry."

Senator Nehket Aeka directed her attention toward Senator Mathi-ey C'b'rton.

"As far as the Veolian Commonwealth is concerned, the current transaction has been one in accordance with all Union laws.

We placed an order for 211 with the Praetorian Empire, and they accepted this order and delivered the exact amount of 211 . With this order came a paper trail clearly indicating that 206 of the 211 were produced on Praeto, the other 5 were produced on Yasno, by the Unified Republic of Darya.

In accordance with the law, we filed for subsidies regarding the 206 produced by the Praetorian Empire."

Addressing all attendees to this inquiry, she continued: "There is no matter of interpretation in this case, since we are not talking about fictional or readily exchangeable objects. As anyone knows, these cargo freighters are massive in size, and not easily confused with each other. There is evidence, both in the form of a paper trail and in the form of the actual ships, that 206 of these were in fact built on Praeto, and that only 5 of these were produced by the shipyards on Yasno.

We are willing to turn over said paper trail to the Ministry of Justice, and invite the Minister to send an auditor to Mirda. Once one inspects the actual mass transit cargo freighters it is clear to see that only 5 of the last shipment are designed in accordance with Daryan specifications and styling, and that 206 of the last order are built with Praetorian specifications and styling. After this inspection, it should be clear that there is no ambiguity."

The Veolian senator, her face still emotionless, directed her next words towards the Lifebringer Clans' representative: "We also invite the Lifebringer Clans to send an auditor, she will be given access to the paper trail, and we will make all freighters delivered to use available for inspection. Once you have inspected the freighters in question, you will see that your interpretation of this trade agreement - and apparently the law - is based on the illusion that 47 are able to suddenly change places with another set of 47 somewhere else in the universe."

[The Lifebringer Clans]

[((OOC: ]Yeah... I'm done. No enjoyment to be had in completing this argument, if this is the tone we're having it in. See you around, etc.[))]

[Praetorian Empire]

((OOC: In my opinion this is not really about the but more about turn handling in general. I think that the ambiguity comes from the fact that it is unclear how the turns are processed from an administrative and IC point of view.

The most important rule in this processing is that trades are handled first. If a faction can not produce the products for his trade this can mean war, every faction wants to avoid this. Because the trades are always handled first the case from the Lifebringer Clans would probably never happen, a faction would not first invest in his own trade fleet if it means he could jeopardize a trade route with this.))

[Veolian Commonwealth]

((OOC: This is going to be a rather long post, since I want to give a serious OOC reaction to the OOC "Yeah... I'm done. No enjoyment to be had in completing this argument, if this is the tone we're having it in. See you around, etc." (by Lifebringer Clans, 2011-10-14 11:39).

First of, I want to express that this is not the tone WE are having this discussion in. We are players, and looking at our previous out-of-character interactions it appears that we all try to be reasonable and happy players. None of the remarks any of my characters make represent my actual opinion, and none of the actions I let my faction take are meant to disrespect, hurt, annoy, etc. any of the other players.

Secondly, If you (the player) have one of your characters act in a politically charged fashion (such as requesting a public inquiry), you can expect that some factions will not be exceedingly forthcoming or flattered.

Out-of-character I was looking forward to a good piece of roleplaying, something that does not appear to be the main focus of most players at the moment. I did not intent to slight any player, and I hope that we can continue playing this game in good spirits.


@Lifebringer Clans: Your OOC comment makes it sound as if you are personally (out-of-character) slighted by the tone of the Veolian reply. I'm not sure what you expect/want from this argument (both you as player, and the Lifebringer Clans as faction); while I agree that the Veolian reaction is not particularly friendly, they are cooperating with the inquiry. And even after the Lifebringer Clans insinuated that they (the Veolian Commonwealth) fraudulently collected a subsidy, they are inviting the Lifebringer Clans (not a neutral party) to come and see for themselves that they did not do anything fraudulent.

Part of this game is roleplaying political interaction, which involves diplomacy and tact. It might be that I interpreted the Lifebringer Clans' message in a way they did not intend -- this is part of the 'diplomacy and tact'. Please bear with me while I try to explain how the Veolian Senator came to the (possibly false) conclusion that the Lifebringer Clans' are insulting the Commonwealth.

Think about the implications of what the displacement of 47 MTCFs would mean: MTCF are not some fungible good. They are made to order based on exact specification (we are talking about spaceships with lengths in the 800+ meter range), and no faction is going to accept MTCFs that have not been built to their specifications (allowing for some difference in styling and exact technological details, allowances must be made since every faction has a different production process).

Following this train of thought I find it highly unlikely that 47 MTCF are suddenly displaced, as the Veolian Commonwealth would never accept MTCF meant for the Praetorian Empire. The MTCF would have completely different specifications in almost all dimensions except cargo volume; their captain's chair would be to big, the crew quarters would have truely weird bunks, and any other facility aboard the MTCF would have the wrong dimensions.

Knowing that MTCFs are made to detailed technical specifications (and are therefore not easily exchanged for other MTCFs), and the fact that the Lifebringer Clans normally act with forethought and strong reasoning the Veolian Senator has concluded that the interpretation put forward by the Lifebringer Clans is one deliberatly designed to insinuate fraudulent behaviour.

I think you can see how the Veolians came to the conclusion that the Lifebringer Clans tried to insult them. From the Veolian point of view the Lifebringer Clans' argued their interpretation based on 47 misplaced MTCFs. From the Veolian perspective these MTCFs could only be displaced in the way the Lifebringer Clans describe if the Veolians actively participated in subsidy fraud.

If this disagreement stems from the fact that you interpret the construction and deployment of in a different way than I do, we should resolve this and smooth things over? I did not have the intention of making you have less fun at playing the game. Even though I (Brend, the player) can not think of any reason for the Lifebringer Clans to do such a thing (i.e., insinuate fraud) I can not justify why the Veolian senator would just allow any faction to throw such blatant insinuations at the Veolian Commonwealth.


@admin: As I have already said, it is not my intention to aggravate anyone here. Maybe some OOC mediation is in order here? (I'm not sure how I can react within the parameters of my intended factional culture without having at least some way to express the the fact that my faction feels slighted or insulted.)


@chriz: How trades are handled OOC does not have an actual relation with how trades are handled IC. Your assumption of 'The most important rule in this processing is that trades are handled first.' is false. Trades can not be handled first, as the product that is to be traded is produced in the same turn as it should be shipped. You should interpret all trades as ongoing flows, not as batches that are handed over at some point during the turn.))

[Lady Peinaili de Montrève]

While the Sundarian Federation has no ties with the events transpired in 17, we share the underlying sentiment Senator Mathi-ey C'b'rton wishes to address. We feel that no faction here is either under direct investigation, nor is this a criminal accusation of any sort. However the matter involving the subsidy and the invocation there of by both the Veolian Commenwealth and the Praetorian Empire stand to review. As has been said the Lifebringer Clans has protested to the course of events during 17 and feels that either faction herein, either the Veolian Commenwealth or the Praetorian Empire has broken the law.

After a carefull study of the law and the situation as specified in 17, I have reached the following conclussions:
1) NO blame is to befall the Veolian Commenwealth or the Republic of Darya in this matter, since evidence clearly suggested that they have followed all procedures in accordance with the usual manners of business and the current trade regulations. It is also my view that the application for subsidy for 206 by the Veolian Commenwealth is done in accordance with the law.

2) We second the statement done by Senator Nehket Aeka of the Veolian Commenwealth that the law leaves only one possible interpretation of events. And the fact that this is not a criminal investigation proves the trust the Union has in its members to abide by the laws.

3) It is the view of the Sundarian Government that the explanation of trade and proceding around this matter is done as stated by Senator Ardios Eldrilith of the Praetorian Empire and that therefore the entire trade, including the application for Subsidy by the Praetorian Empire is also in accordance with the law.

Having reached a conclusion there are some suggestions I would like to make to prevent an event such as this in the future, and to resolve the matters with this inquiry.

Firstly, I would like to ask the Praetorian Empire, the Veolian Commonwealth and the Republic of Darya to turn over the paper trails involved in this trade to the Ministry of Justice for an audit.

Secondly, to prevent an event such as this in the future I urge the Praetorian Empire to keep close attention to the law and be careful to seek out its limits. While all trades made in 17 are in accordance with the law, and are separate agreements, the bigger picture suggests the possibility of foul play.

Thank you.

[[ OOC by the second postulate: @All, while this is not an accusation of foul play, and i believe that it was never the intention of either party involved to violate the law, the course of events in 17 comes awfully close to it. The underlying cause of this is what Brend said " ..as the product that is to be traded is produced in the same turn as it should be shipped. You should interpret all trades as ongoing flows, not as batches that are handed over at some point during the turn. " ]]

[Senator Ardios Eldrilith]

"Dear Senators,

I would like to emphasize that the Praetorian Empire will only act according to Union law. The Praetorian Empire still is a valid candidate for receiving this subsidy.
If there is anybody that has a different idea on this matter we are open to proposals for new law or changes to old ones. The Union could open a new vote for this."

Senator Ardios Eldrilith pauses and listens quickly to one of his assistants before he continues.

"My apologies for this interruption.
We have just received news from our trade department that they are going to negotiate with the Daryans again soon. They are planning to buy at least 100 and intend to claim the subsidy on these . Since our sales department has trade deals in motion to sell to other factions a similar situation as in 17 might occur in the near future.
Because we do not want this to turn into a political problem we have chosen to give you all a heads up on this matter.

Thank you"

[Mercury]

((OOC: I am sorry I could not reply to this earlier - I intended to respond this weekend, but unfortunately I had to let real life matters, specifically getting a paper out to a conference in time, take precedence over FWURG.

I didn't make this clear earlier, but I want to note that whatever people may think of the way the Praetorian Empire uses the subsidies, no game rules were broken - as such, I considered the disagreement to be an IC disagreement to be handled IC. Perhaps this was a mistake on my part and I should have gotten more involved OOCly to prevent things from blowing up.

I do not believe that anyone had any intention of causing trouble, but I do feel some OOC and IC lines have blurred here and there. In my experience this is not uncommon in roleplay and it merely shows that people are invested in their characters and their worlds.

That all being said, the Lifebringer Clans had prior to this already announced their leaving and have confirmed it in this topic. I will therefore let the OOC issue rest.

However, there is also a valid IC discussion. If nobody objects, I am going to this open for further discussion, since I believe it may offer interesting roleplay.

I do ask however that everyone to please keep the discussion IC only. If there is confusion as to how trade is handled OOC or if people feel there may be further OOC disagreements between players I am happy to help and address this in a separate threat or by private message.))

[Senator Mathi-ey C'b'rton of the Divine Fiefdom of Highmons]

"Thank you everyone for your swift and forthcoming replies.

I have sent requests to the various governments for copies of their records and I will personally study these to determine what is going on."

((OOC: I am assuming everyone willingly parts with copies of the actual records they may have. If you do not (for example if you wish to forge records, if you wish to roleplay having inaccurate or incomplete paperwork or if you simply don't wish to comply with the request) please note this either or, given the sensitive nature, by pm if you feel uncomfortable posting this openly.))

"Subsidies can be applied to a world in two ways. They can receive subsidies on MTCF's they buy and they can grant subsidies to worlds who buy MTCF's they sell. There is no entry in the law forbidding a member from benefiting in both of these ways. Thus, at first glance, I do not believe that the letter of the law has been violated. That being said, an argument could be made that using both subsidy options was not the intention of the law.

After my initial screening, under normal circumstances I would have blocked payment of subsidies on purchased MTCF's to nations benefiting from both buying and selling subsidies during the investigation. If the investigation decides they have a right to these funds, they would be paid at a later turn and if it turned out they did not, no action would be required.

However, the Praetorian Empire has been most forthcoming with information and has voluntarily announced their intentions regarding future subsidy use in advance. Because of this openness of information, at this time I see no reason to block payment of any subsidies and I will allow the situation to continue as is until the investigation concludes."

[Senator Mathi-ey C'b'rton of the Divine Fiefdom of Highmons]

"To open up with the primary conclusion:

I have found no evidence of foul, fraud or deception in this case. All documents were provided on time, in full and properly certified and I have personally confirmed that they are all valid and that the content is correct.

I furthermore confirm that the double use of subsidies (on both buying and selling) is legal by the letter of the law. In the deal under investigation, all necessary criteria required by the law have been met by all parties. I therefore close any possibility of a criminal investigation or cases against member worlds on the grounds of earlier subsidies and deals made before this time.

Regarding the intent of the law: The option of double-ended subsidies was debated during the vote. Being aware of the option of double-ended subsidies at the time the law was written, the Union members collectively still decided to accept the proposal with a significant margin.

When looking at reasons for voting against the law, the only party that listed the double-ended subsidies as (one of three) reasons to vote against the law was the Lifebringer Clans. Since additionally there have been no complaints from any party, including the Lifebringer Clans who merely requested clarification, I must conclude there is both implied and explicit support for the double-ended subsidies interpretation.

I therefore officially declare the use of double-ended subsidies on MTCF to be officially valid.

Thank you."