Fwurg

[Evermourne]

Dear users of Fwurg.

This question has been lingering in my mind for some time now. and since my posting becomes more frequent and bigger this becomes a small issue for me. I was wondering in what timeline i can place to world of Fwurg when it comes to the Star wars universe. I understand that this setting is a world on its own with no direct links to the world George Lucas has created in his many movies. but I wonder if we can use any movie or lore related thing from there in our own world.


An example on how I see this is always useful. As you know the "Retrieval of Teachings" mission is mine with its general idea is the pursuit of knowlage on a lost segment of the past (I wont go into more detail of course). Seeing as how it unfold I can think off many sub segments to this or for future story ideas for people who like to chase down lore of star wars. Like making references to Luke skywalkers work afther the Darth Vader ordeal. or stories before the first movie that i read about.

so my question basically comes down to
"Are we allowed to reference movie/noval material from the generally know star wars universe to work out story idea's"

[Brend]

Short answer: I would say no.

Long answer: I have been walking around with partially the same question for some time now, and I too feel that I need some more information on the FWURG timeline.

I have gleaned from the wiki: The Old Republic broke down, and little to nothing is known about it due to the Times of Chaos. However, I'm not even sure if this Old Republic is the same Old Republic as the one described on wookiepedia...

If it is, that would mean that FWURG diverges from the timeline before the establishment of the Empire; which would seem fitting. So as far as I am concerned, none of these (movies, stories from books, etc.) things have happened yet or will happen. I feel more comfortable with big names like Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker not existing at all; they draw to much focus, and to me this does not feel appropriate in a parallel setting.

However, that is not to say that older history should be available, for example the old Rakata empire will probably have existed, but evidence of this will be very scarce. From an OOC narrative perspective the time of chaos is explicitly designed to cut ties with any over-arching timeline from an early point in time.

Unfortunately, the vagueness about the times of chaos and the age of the Union has been a bit of a problem for me as well. My faction's history is explicitly designed around this issue at the moment, because I couldn't get the information, and I didn't really care. However, with all the new players joining, and with story lines tying into the past it might indeed be time to straigthen things out.

So, I'm going to ask some more questions:

• How long does the Union exist? (When was the first inauguration of a chancellor / when was the Declaration of Unity signed by the first group of signatories?)
• How long ago did the times of chaos happen? (I understand that a distinct end can not be pointed out, it is chaos after all. But when was the chaos subdued on the local vicinity of the Union?)
• How long were the times of chaos? (Did they last for a 100 years, a 1000 years, 10000 years?)
• What little, if any, is known about the fate of the Jedi during these times?

I understand the desire to leave this vague, but this will invariably mean that all background stories from the different players will also be vague, and probably disconnected due to this. If we don't know how long ago this was, we can't depict our culture to be both young, and to have been established during the times of chaos, especially if someone else also does this, but declares their culture to be old...

So I would very much like to remove some vagueness, it wouldn't even be necessary to call out exact dates, but ballpark figures would be much appreciated.

PS. I know Mercury is very busy at the moment, and have it on good authority that he will have time for FWURG next week monday and tuesday. So a bit of patience might be necessary ^_^

[Evermourne]

I have looked at the wiki entries as well and it is indeed pretty slim.

If our current timeline is set before the generally know books and novels then that is just fine. Though I think that having a few famous names around really speaks to the newer public and makes it easier for people to hook on in a story to. But of course I do understand the urge to not use this. The use of names was more just an option.

However if we agree not to use the general things from the books or novals i do suggest we need a history page. A page dedicated to explain how indeed the Old republic broke down and the general timeline of the Times of Chaos and the other questions Brend uttered before. Next to that a history section on how the superpowers came to be as they are is also not a bad idea in my opinion. having a good foundation on how this world came to be will make it more realistic on how new players came to be where they are and the new races which can be made by the players will fit in more logical if they add a history section to it immediately. These histories can then be used to explore and expand them further by playing with it and letting the Storytellers make new missions from them.

If we remain with our current world it is going to be harder and harder to make well fitting loremaster missions next to the infiltrate / escort missions that currently set the pace. I am not saying that these are bad kinds of mission by the way. But out of personal view i like to explore more about backgrounds and scientific parts in Roleplaying. though that of course is a personal preference. My Retrieval of Teachings mission and T'sal Veolian Culture lessons are a good step to add history to the world and explore other possibilities.

If there is no world i find it is up to us (mostly storytellers) to shape the world around the players.

[Brend]

If there is no world i find it is up to us (mostly storytellers) to shape the world around the players.

I partly agree. The players themselves, not being limited to a single character, have a great opportunity to come up with history not only of their own faction, but also of interactions with others; and even historical conflicts or interaction with other player factions (in amicable OOC dialogue of course).

I have been on this 'you must talk the empress' rampage partly to focus the creative efforts of some of the players into coming up with more culture and historical detail -- but don't tell them ^_^

If we remain with our current world it is going to be harder and harder to make well fitting loremaster missions next to the infiltrate / escort missions that currently set the pace. I am not saying that these are bad kinds of mission by the way. But out of personal view i like to explore more about backgrounds and scientific parts in Roleplaying. though that of course is a personal preference. My Retrieval of Teachings mission and T'sal Veolian Culture lessons are a good step to add history to the world and explore other possibilities.

I agree that missions that expose history and details are not only very fun to participate in, they are also crucial to the collaborative development of the world. Even if we skip the great names, we can easily use a lot of history of the star wars universe, as long as it is 'ancient' history. A lot of lore has been obscured or destroyed by the times of chaos, but it might be out there... Especially interesting are ancient texts on Jedi practices and such (though absolutely no midichlorians); but most anything of the time before the times of chaos will have value to someone in the Union.

I would like the opinion of other players on this as well -- this shouldn't be a discussion between storytellers.


PS. If you (Evermourne) have talked your storyline over with Mercury, part of the times of chaos information can be deducted from your current plotline: Malarika is apparently a "late jedi master who went renegade from the jedi order hundreds of years ago." combined with "I am afraid that I cant say much about Malarika. In the time of troubles we lost much knowlage in the chaos." I can deduce from this that times of troubles can not be further back than a few hundreds of years.... Which would already be very long, or very short, depending on which faction's history you look at...

[Elmer]

First: I have no troubles with referring to general star wars phenomena, like the Nightsisters of Dathomir http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nightsister, but I dislike references to time-dependent phenomena. (Like the clone-wars, the empire, certain names etc.)

Second: I like a general time line, something in the form of:
20XX - first contact
20XY - the jedi empire of peace and prosperity
21XX - first troubles with a bird
22XY - begin times of chaos
34XX - begin of union, marking the end of chaos
etc.

In this way it will be more easy for everybody to create a logical history.

I think I will make a general setup for the timeline some later this night. But I don't know if I got the time to do so.

[Brend]

First: I have no troubles with referring to general star wars phenomena, like the Nightsisters of Dathomir http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nightsister, but I dislike references to time-dependent phenomena. (Like the clone-wars, the empire, certain names etc.)

I fully agree.

I think I will make a general setup for the timeline some later this night. But I don't know if I got the time to do so.

Don't forget that the old republic was there for literally tens of thousands of years. The star wars universe isn't 'new' to space travel, hyperdrives have existed for a very very long time. So it's not really a '20xx: first contact, 34xx: begin of union' thing. It's more like 'A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" with the emphasis on 'long'.

There are species that have been around for more than those tens of thousands of years. (I have a character that is 3000+ years old... she would have easily outlived your example timeline :P)

Other than that. Please post it here ^_^, I look forward to more input.

PS. I'll also try and get Mercury to post some remarks so we can all continue with building stories even though he is very busy.

[Stuiter]

I agree that there should be more IC content on the wiki to make roleplay easy.
I does not have to be long, just some general information about for example Unity city or the Jedi order would be enough.
That way people have the right basis from which they can create their own content.
And maybe there should be a committee to check new content and then it.

[Elmer]

In my eyes, that committee already exist, we are the committee. When none of us ooc disagree with any time line thingy, it is agreed in my eyes. Else is Mercury the committee, as he is the one storyteller to rule them all.

[Brend]

Side note: I have removed the verse from the Jedi Order page. I had hoped Mercury would've posted today, but he seems too busy.

I discussed these issues with him this afternoon, and in short: none of the star wars canon events or names or factions exist, or will ever exist. This includes the default Jedi order, as our jedi order is not the same as the star wars universe jedi order.

I propose we do not edit the wiki based on information from the retrieval of teachings mission until he has posted the final say on this issue.

[Evermourne]

why remove the verse?

I understand we are a world on our own and of course in that light the verse I used or asked to recite in the mission can therefore be, "out of place" , in some eyes. Though personally I do not think we should discard it. The widely know verse is.. well.. as stated. Widely know. Maybe not by heart but everyone has heard it somewhere in any star wars related thing.
I personally find the verse to be a key point of the Jedi order which in short sums up the way Jedi generally think. Of course personal background and race and social standing and all that influences all thinking processes of course. But still this verse should be in the back of everyone's head.

For the future I will try to not reference anything that directly related to the other world. But what ever the ruling becomes on this subject I would like that my verse part not to be altered in any way in the Retrieval of Teachings mission. For the time being.

[Brend]

I should have clarified my reasons for doing so.

I personally find the verse to be a key point of the Jedi order which in short sums up the way Jedi generally think.

Mercury has said, in the past, that the Jedi Order we see in FWURG is not as black/white as the Jedi order from the movies. In my eyes this verse is very tied into the black-and-white world view of the jedi order in the movies.

However, I do understand that it is crucial to your storyline. I don't want to discard it, but our Jedi order is certainly not the Jedi order from episode 1, and tough the verse will probably exist, it is probably not the core tennet as it was made out on the wiki (thought maybe it is, and I'm mistaken).

To clarify: I would have removed any information derived form the retrieval thread, until such time that Mercury clarified the extent of universe overlap. This is not something against the verse only, or against the interesting storyline in the retrieval of teachings thread -- I just want to prevent increasing confusion until we know how things are.

Does this clear things up?

[Evermourne]

It does.

I understand how my mission information can now be conflicting with current believes. So yes removing wiki information regarding what I or the players type out in the mission would be best for now.
I know myself good enough that in the future I will require some more universe information though since lore is such a nice thing for me. As suggested by Brend we should wait out till Merc has had a chance to shed some light on these matters. And next to that I think it is a good idea that the timeline wiki should indeed be created in some extend so that popular events can be recorded and described and left open for Storytellers/players to make new events in the timeline to their faction,race or personal history.

For the time being I will work out the mission as I had intended it. which will have its currently used verse and maybe some more things bordering on the movie/novel information. though now that I know this is a hot topic. I'll try to keep it at a minimum.

For the players who read this and that are playing in my story. (I don't know all players names with all characters names yet) you will have to excuse me for maybe using some confusion things in my story for the time being till this matter is settled. I hope all readers and players do keep interest in the mission though and wont discard it for its weird links :)

[Mercury]

Ok, this threat is evolving way faster than I had anticipated.

The world of Fwurg and the world of Star Wars are two separate universes. It only borrows from the Star Wars setting in a general sense, never in a specific one. For example, we use races and planets and philosophy from the Star Wars setting, but we do not use individuals from the Star Wars setting.

When I wrote about the Old Republic, I certainly did not mean the same Old Republic as in Wookiepedia or Knights of the Old Republic. In this sense, the name of this was unfortunately chosen and may need changing to avoid this confusion.

Here is a more detailed history of the galaxy:

Before the times of Chaos, there was a stable galactic environment. Though the exact details are unknown, there were several superpowers (in the Union / Core Hegemony area of the galaxy this was one the to be renamed Old Republic) and these engaged in open trade.

Power was centralised with these superpowers and travel between different parts of the galaxy was comparatively easy - you could be guaranteed you were safe as superpowers maintained order and prevented such things as piracy and other problematic elements. All in all, there was one galactic economy with established trade lanes and a generally free flow of people and goods.

Then, the Times of Chaos hit the galaxy. Nobody knows exactly what caused the times of chaos. Perhaps it was economic downturn, political revolt or the likes. We know that the development of new technologies led to centralised governments having a hard time holding on to their power as pirating became easier and more lucrative.

Regardless of the cause, the Times of Chaos are not a one off event, they did not start at any particular time, but rather started at various times in various places as central governments were more or less successful in maintaining order. Depending on where you were, the Times of Chaos lasted some three to five thousand years.

With no central government, the galaxy became a giant failed state. The intergalactic trade networks broke down, hyperspace lanes were lost and entire civilisations rose and fell multiple times over time. As a result, much historic information was lost. Most people couldn't get out of their home system, let alone their sector, with the possible exception of pirates who in turn fell victim to one another.

During this period many worlds, unable to trade due to piracy, were cut off from one another. As these worlds depended on one another for trade, economic problems arose on an unprecedented scale, sending the entire galaxy into a huge recession from which it still has not recovered. Many worlds faced revolutions and those that did not faced huge social change being locked down into a single system.

This is not to say worlds could not have contact at all in the Times of Chaos. Individuals could travel between worlds at great danger and messages could be exchanged, but with nobody to repair infrastructure and no option to trade, many worlds declared the intergalactic community irrelevant as it had little to offer them beyond exchanging niceties - not to mention that many people blamed "the other worlds" for the Times of Chaos.

Over time, technologies changed at different paces in different places, but about a century ago the technology developed to a point where centralised governments could once again hold power over quick-witted pirates and where decentralised groups and rag tag bands of pirates were no longer at an advantage. Powers such as the Excarian Confederacy and the Holy Heimgolian Theocracy used these new technologies to construct fleets and wipe out piracy in their sector, setting up trade with one another. Like them, other new powers arose dealing with piracy locally to allow access to new galactic resources.

This improved access in turn boosted the economy of these worlds which led to the governments that had brought down the pirates rising in power. Soon, they would run into neighbouring states.

Recognising the cost of a full scale war - the destruction of all the advantages gained - some fifty years ago several local powers founded the Union, with Unity as its capital planet. Together they eradicated piracy between them, restored the Bozzy Spine to allow easier trade between them and slowly but certainly new worlds who had been previously cut off were able to join the Union, forming the institution it is today.

The Jedi were certainly a power to be reconnected with, but even they did not have the power to stop the times of chaos. Jedi Temples were destroyed in revolutions, raids and wars, and individual Jedi were cut off from one another by the new conditions. Isolated and subject to forces beyond their control, ancient teachings were lost as the Jedi valued the preservation of life over the preservation of knowledge and would rather save the children hiding in their temple then carry of Holocrons with secret knowledge.

However, the Jedi did survive the Times of Chaos, and through long distance communication and occasional dangerous trips, some form of Jedi Council was held, made up of individual Jedi Masters rather than being any centralised authority of sorts. Various sects and subgroups of the Jedi formed and splinter groups split off, never to be heard from again.

This here is a story hook, but it also allows for different sub-groups of the Jedi to develop different idea's and teachings. Teachings such as the verse can be held dear by some groups but not by all Jedi, for example, while still other groups have their own versions. Think the Protestant vs Catholic Lords prayer (which have minor differences in Dutch, for example).

When the new powers started gaining on the pirates, the Jedi were instrumental in getting governments in power and they were the key instigators in forming the Union, lobbying with leaders about the cost of war and the benefit of cooperation. As a reward for their efforts, the Jedi were granted a Jedi Temple on Unity and they still hold great political influence on many Union worlds.

Like the Union, other places too had their rise of central authority figures. The Core Hegemony, and arguably the Hutt Families, ended the Times of Chaos in their sectors by assuming centralised control. But many sectors still remain in the hands of pirates as they are too far away for super powers to bother - here, the Times of Chaos are still raging. Arguably the first area where the Times of Chaos ended is with the Mandalorian Fleets, who have a long established tradition of ruling this area, though since the Mandalorians are raiders and pirates, one could argue that they are the very representation of the Times of Chaos.

Adding to this, Fwurg is not just my worlds. It is all our worlds. I am not the supreme story teller to rule them all and in fact I do not rule any one of you.

The Times of Chaos deliberately leave room for players to shape their histories as they see fit, without conflicting with others. Its a narrative disconnect to allow people more freedom.

My proposal would be this: why not make a Wiki page with a time line, with year 0 being the founding date of the Union. Since the Times of Chaos are chaotic and have no clear beginning or end, the best we can do is to say where they begin or end roughly and in the general area of the Union, but at least there would be some indication. Players in turn can add their own historic events to the time-line, such as the founding of their nation states, etc.

Then if we need adjustments or if we find that the history as I propose it here based on what I had in my head should be changed, we can do so.

[Elmer]

This explanation makes things a lot easier. When I talked to Brend he agreed that the times of chaos are sort of an equivalent of the hyperspace version of the dark ages.

I am also in favour of the time-line, setting it on 0 by the creation of Union seems logical. In this way we can also add when every faction is joined and hold celebrations ^^.

[Brend]

Ok. So now that we have determined there is no setting-overlap, what are we renaming what is currently called the 'Old Republic' to? (Because keeping it is going to add to the confusion with new players joining and such.)

Next to this: I think mercury's explanation should really be featured on the wiki somewhere (preferable in part on the times of chaos page...)

[Mercury]

I have changed the name of the 'Old Republic' to the 'Fallen Republic' and posted my earlier post on the wiki with some minor edits for styling, to be made neat later on.