Fwurg

[Brend]

I've got a question, and though I'm reasonably sure I've already asked this somewhere, I can't seem to find the related thread.

As it is now, there is a single skill that is different from all others: Slicing. This is the single skill that requires a Jedi to be trained in it before allowing use of the skill.

The wiki has this to say on it: "Some tricks can be performed by anyone, but many skills require at least one level to be able to perform them. For example, you cannot slice a computer system without the Slicing skill." However, there is currently no other skill that can only be done when trained -- I understand that it's an open world assumption, and there are a a lot of undefined skills (probably including a heap-load of trained-only skills) -- but it seems a bit contrived like this.

I try to play a more outdoors type of Jedi, but I find that this prohibits me from slicing at all -- I should either take slicing (which doesn't fit with my character concept), or accept that I'm the only one locked out of a large set of options. What bothers me isn't the fact that I'm locked out if I don't take slicing -- no training, no clue -- but the fact that everyone else is not limited by this. They can just do everything I can, without any investment in skills. (Not as good mind you, but at least they can try...)

So I ask: What's the reason that slicing is trained only while, for example, Mechanical Engineer or Wilderness Survival is not? (Not saying that we must change it though, this is more a curiosity thing)

[Mercury]

I think more skills should be listed as trained only. The idea is that some things you just need to have done to be able to do, like slicing, while others, like climbing, don't require training but can be tried by anyone (though training obviously helps). I'm open to hear which skills make sense to be trained only and which ones do not!

[Brend]

I've tried to come up with a reasonable list of things that should be trained-only in my opinion. (We should also add a field tot the skill data model to tag them as such -- I'll do this later on.)

I think the following skills should be trained-only:

• Explosives. As I gather, this is not the use of 'consumer grade' explosives such as grenades, but the actual construction and disarming of specialized bombs and mines.
• First Aid. This requires extensive knowledge of anatomy and xenophysiology. ((Note: )I could see how (from a 'keep each other alive' kind of view) this shouldn't be trained-only if we want padawan to patch each other up.))
• Historical Engineer. This skills is about obscure and obsolote technologies that have been far surpassed by every-day technologies like hoverdrives.
• Linguistics. Learning another language (next to your native language and basic galatic) requires extensive effort.
• Military Command. Though everyone is capable of leading (they are jedi after all), commanding large armadas requires training and complex knowledge about strategies and tactics.
• Scientist. As the skill is currently described this most definitely requires training. The scientific method does not requiere this, but extensive knowledge in your field of expertise about tools and theories does.
• Slicing. Even though computers are commonplace, knowing how to attack and penetrate an virtual system is very specific.
• Wilderness Survival. Given the prevalence of civilization, a lot of people will not do well when dropped in the wilderness.
• Lightsaber Construction. See reasoning below.

I judged each skill based on the following factors:

• Is it an innate ability? For example, jumping or rolling are innate abilities for most forms of life. If so, it can be done untrained.
• Does the skill handle a common technology? For example, pilotting a space ship, programming a computer or adjusting a blaster. If so, it can be done untrained.
• Does the skill require knowledge of complex processes? For example, first aid requires extensive knowledge on anatomy and the processes in the body. If so, this skill can only be done when trained.
• Is the skill a iconic Jedi skill? For example, acrobatics or lightsaber construction are iconic skill to the jedi.

I have ambivalent feelings on Lightsaber Construction. On the one hand it is an iconic Jedi skill, and I think it's even canon (and refered on wookiepedia) that most Jedi learn to craft them. This does not necessarily say that the construction of such a powerful weapon can be done untrained. It would not be unlogical to assume that the specifics of creating a lightsaber from scratch (in contrast to adjusting an existing saber) are a closely guarded secret of the Jedi -- if not, why aren't they used as universal cutting torches all over?

In the end I think that Lightsaber Construction could be made trained-only, especially when taking into account the fact that Weapons Engineer allows one to adjust a lightsaber untrained.

[Mercury]

I think your suggestions make sense and would support making those trained only.

I want to add some details however:

First aid, as mentioned, should be available to non-trained users to save lives. I would reason basic life saving manoeuvres such as mouth-to-mouth, CPR, laying bandages, are part of basic Jedi training, therefore Jedi should be allowed to use it untrained. Perhaps this skill should be changed to "Medicine" or something so first aid can be done untrained, but medicine and medical knowledge cannot.

]Linguistics is not a "1 language per point" kind of thing and starting characters are not limited to a set number of languages for a character with or without the skill. Agreed it should be trained only, but I don't want to limit players in how many tongues they speak - there are over six million forms of communication regardless ^_^

I think wilderness survival should be allowed untrained - you'd be surprised how well people can survive in the wilderness, children can and do survive for weeks without training or adult aid. However, something like tracking and navigation should be trained only. Perhaps a little bit of renaming will fix the issue?

I see lightsaber construction as a good trained only candidate, even while allowing Jedi to make their own lightsaber, given time and resources (such as at the Jedi temple) - the skill could be used for during mission construction or adding special crystals or things like scanners to ensure only the Jedi can use the blade, etc (none of which could not be done untrained).

I do not think knowing how to making a lightsaber needs to be secret however - rather, most people can't use a lightsaber as they are very dangerous and practically useless for them. They could cut off their own limbs very easily and they cannot intercept blaster bolts as Jedi can as this requires the force. For a non-jedi a lightsaber is no different from a regular sword, which is clearly inferior to a blaster rifle, and non-jedi cannot attack on multiple rings at the same time with it as they have to be more careful about their swings, not having the Force to guide them in their fight.

How do other people feel?

[Stuiter]

I think more skills should be trained only (mechanical engineer, pod racer, programming).
But then you get the problem that you might not be able to do things.
The storyteller can give penalties for not having the skill and still trying.
So you can let the storyteller make the decision between you really need to know how or that with some help of the force you can do.

[Brend]

To me, Pod Racer falls under the same reasoning as Pilot. It's a skill that can be done with little or no training, as it involves very common interaction. However, to be great at it requires dedication and practice. (The same holds for Mechanical Engineer)

Programming should be untrained in my opinion because there are an enormous amount of computers in a Star Wars setting. And most of them are way more advanced than the computers you and I use. So I assume that instructing these computersto do something (i.e. programming) has become equally advanced -- you just inform the machine of your goals, and off you go. Though with practice and experience you can express stranger and complexer goals.

----

I feel giving penalties for not having the skill and trying it anyway defeats the purpose of declaring them untrained-only. Since force users get their Force Level on all checks, they could easily counteract the penalties just by being very strong in the force. I find that if something is trained-only, but strong force users get to skip that particular issue just by being strong in the force, it is not trained-only, it is just very difficult.

[Brend]

As there has been no activity for roughly three weeks on this, I'm going to assume that everyone is fine with this.

Someone please second this (preferably Mercury).

[Mercury]

Consider it seconded ^_^

[Elmer]

I like the idea of trained-only skills, it makes skills more meaningful and useful to take.

[Brend]

Done. See Skill refactoring for trained-only flag.