Fwurg

[Brend]

This turn, I will start surveying for my settlement site. Because of the high costs, I have acquired the Sensor Vessels technology. Before the introduction of the Settlement, this was a clear-cut thing: Sensor Vessels reduces the base scanning time with 1 , and will therefore reduce the cost by one 'cost per turn' increment. With the Settlement, things are a little less clear.

Now I have a question: How much will using the scanning reduction produced by Sensor Vessels actualy save me? It is clear that instead of the listed 30 my survey project will take only 29 . However, it is not clear whether I save 1500 or 2000 .

The relevant facts:

• Surveying has a cost expressed in '(:tax) per ' to calculate the total cost of the surveying project.
• Settlement surveying has two rates: 1500 per for the first 20 , 2000 per for the rest of the turns.
• Sensor Vessels reduces the base survey time of all surveys by one .
• The settlement survey rates are called 'basic' and 'extended', which has nothing to do with 'base survey time' which is increased by the used realspace in the sector.

I have no problem with allowing the cost reduction to be the higher 2000 -- surveying for a settlement will be expensive regardless. From an IC perspective it makes sense to use every trick in the book (and probably some not in the book) to improve surveying accuracy to get the most out of the survey fleets.

(Note: I will start my surveying project this turn regardless of the progress of this thread, and will adjust the cost when we reach consensus here.)

[Chriz]

I believe the basic scanning for the settlement is the base survey time. The extended scanning is an addition.

It is true that the total scanning cost is high, however this is not how we reason about techs in fwurg normally, to be honest since we added the settlement the Sensor Vessels Technology is already very cheap for what it gives. This is why I believe it is logical it should be the 1500 .

[Brend]

I believe the basic scanning for the settlement is the base survey time. The extended scanning is an addition.

I disagree. The sum of basic and extended durations is the 'base survey time' for the settlement. The fact that the terms sound alike does not make them the same. It is for example not possible to abort scanning after the basic scanning period is over, so the extended surveying is an integral part of the base survey time.

[Chriz]

Would this mean you would also need to pay 2000 / extra for an increased survey time when their is already real space used in the sector?

I agree that the surveying for a settlement is unclear. The point is not really the technology, it is what we call base surveying time. The different costs make this harder.

I believe the 30 for the base settlement is the base surveying time which would mean additional real space increases this part. The extended work is a fixed additional cost that gives you a bonus.

[Brend]

Would this mean you would also need to pay 2000 / extra for an increased survey time when their is already real space used in the sector?

If you actually have extended surveying, then yeah. I would say that the more tricky part of the business will actually get stretched up in time, which neatly matches up with the whole 'space is really empty, but its the economic spots that get taken' thing about realspace.

I agree that the surveying for a settlement is unclear. The point is not really the technology, it is what we call base surveying time. The different costs make this harder.

To be honest, I did not expect there to much discussion about the base survey cost... I just saw it as the 'all surveying time before realspace gets factored in' thing. Though this might indeed be a point.

I believe the 30 for the base settlement is the base surveying time which would mean additional real space increases this part. The extended work is a fixed additional cost that gives you a bonus.

I'm assuming you're talking about the 20 basic surveying here? Please don't confuse matters by mixing terminology here... (base != basic, and a 'base settlement' is not even a thing.)

As I see it the other part is not 'fixed cost' because it scales with the surveying time needed. The more fancy the system you want to find, the more likely the most economic parts are already in use, hence the increased surveying time above the base survey time...

Anyhow, apart from your clarification in my third quote, I'd really like the opinion of other players as well ^_^

[Gerben]

The way that I currently interpret the rules in question here is this:

The base survey time as stated within the Sensor Vessels technology equates to the 20 period, which is the minimum time one would need to scan in order to set up any settlement.

As a result, this would mean that the application of the technology would save you 1500 .

I think the key point here is to consider that the settlement page currently specially lists a (minimum) scanning period of 20 , without considering already present real-estate and the effect they might have on the scanning duration. This may or may not have been an oversight when the real-estate rules were introduced, but it is clear that this subject needs further clarification.

Perhaps a solution can be found in refrasing the technology to reduce the scanning time, just as with multiple fleets, instead of the current 'base survey time'. But that still leaves the question whether one would then save either 1500 or 2000 .

[Brend]

...without considering already present real-estate and the effect they might have on the scanning duration. This may or may not have been an oversight when the real-estate rules were introduced, but it is clear that this subject needs further clarification.

That is already stated in the surveying rules under the 'Surveying Mechanics' heading: "The survey time is increased by the amount of Realspace already in use in the sector."

So that part is already taken care of. The question here basically boils down to two things now:

1. What counts as the 'base survey time' for Settlements? (Possible answers: "The whole minimum duration for surveying" or "The first 20 of surveying")
2. Depending on the previous question: if it is "The whole minimum duraiton for surveying" do you save 1500 or 2000 ?

I think we simply hash out the first question first.


I remain of the opinion that the answer to 1. is "The whole minimum duration for surveying"; if only the first 20 count as the 'base survey' time, it becomes very attractive to apply the Surveying with multiple fleets rules with it's "For every two fleets added beyond the first, you may reduce the survey time by one turn (which lowers the cost as well as the time limit), but this may never reduce the time below the base survey time plus one."

Note how you can not lower the survey duration below the base survey time plus one (which would be 11 ) if only the first 20 are counted as base survey time. But you are allowed to lower the total survey time... So, if we take only the first 20 , we change the 'multiple fleets help if there is alreay used realspace' to effectively mean 'Settlements become much cheaper if you have some survey fleets lying around'.


Note that I am fine with saving only 1500 , but the issue runs a little deeper due to the relevance of base survey times. (Of course, saving 2000 is nicer :P)

[Brend]

Based on the nitpick-level of this issue (and the fact that no one has expressed an opinion on the matter in the last two weeks), I will enact the following things in the next weekend (the one of 2014-10-25), unless objections are raised:

1. The surveying rules will be clarified to make clear that the 'base survey time' for a Settlement is the full time required to survey the desired system (thus 'base survey time = basic settlement and all necessary extended settlement'). This prevents the 'Settlements become much cheaper if you have some survey fleets lying around' exploit, which was not the intention of the Settlement rules.
2. The Sensor Vessels technology will be updated to note that it saves 1500 when applied on the surveying for a Settlement. This is already a big save compared to the technology cost.

[Elmer]

I had already forgotten this thread. I don't really have an opinion about this.

[Brend]

I have updated the surveying, sensor vessels and settlement pages.

[Elmer]

I have added the updates in the changelog.