Fwurg

[Elmer]

To be able to upgrade The Cradle, I need techs to upgrade, therefore I have the following proposals for techs:

combat moon upgrade: This upgrade allows a small moon to add combat stats equal to the one of a war fleet and will be able to be upgraded as such following the rules of upgrading fleets. The combat moon requires no zones and no upkeep.

tech cost: 5 1000 600

stellar travel moon upgrade: This upgrade allows a artificial moon to travel through a system. This travel requires no upkeep, but the moon can travel only 1 orbit per . But will always be counted as a orbit.

tech cost: 5 1000

The stellar travel tech cost is a little arbitrary as I have no idea what a good way is to calculate the benefit of transferring 1 zone through a system.

Interstellar movement upgrade: This special project allows the artificial moon to travel throughout the galaxy. It can only travel 1 per , and it needs 90 available to travel, but it will have no upkeep.
Prerequisite: stellar travel moon upgrade, artificial moon.

cost: 20 77500 10 000

The cost of this upgrade is determined by having 1 fleet 5 away for 10 . So basically what if the cradle will invade the enemy super power.

Please let me hear what you think of it. :)

[Brend]

First off: I like the idea of technologies enabling the construction or augmentation of superstructures. I also like the idea of other people than me coming up with new technologies. That being said, I have a whole lot of constructive criticism (if any of my arguments are unclear, do not hesitate to ask for clarification).

All these techs seem to be special projects, and those usually require both a technology to unlock, and a special project that has to be built.

Combat Moon Upgrade
It seems this technology tries to be both technology and implementation at the same time (it just lists the fleet construction cost as 'research cost'). This technology can turn any small moon into a defensive fleet that requires no Fleet Zone and no upkeep, which I think is a very strong advantage over a normal fleet.

I would propose that the combat moon would be a special project, with the technology costing at least 4000 , and the actual set-up of the 'fleet component' costing at least double that of a normal fleet (you get to ditch the zone). Upkeep should still be paid, as this is the most influential balancing factor of the Military system.

Stellar Travel Moon Upgrade
This technology, I see no direct problems with. Only in combination with other technologies does this pose any significant advantage. I do think, however, that this is a tad cheap for what it actually does.

I think this should also be split into a tech+special project pair. The technology should be around 2000 , with the special project requiring 500 , 1000 , and 1000 .

Interstellar Movement Upgrade
I am not clear on what 'it needs 90 available to travel' actually means... Does this require a steady supply of 90 ? Just like with other resources, is a flow -- you can't store it, and you can't 'single use' it.

[Brend]

I wasn't done yet -- but I split up my post into two parts because I somehow couldn't format it nicely in a single post :S

Continuing with the Interstellar Movement Upgrade: I do not feel fully qualified to judge the influence of such a superweapon on the game, but I would impose some limitations (such as only moving through sectors with hyperspace lanes). Regardless, this too should be split into a tech+special project pair. (With the technology costing only + , while the special project costs as least some amount of + + .)

If I were you, I would also look into a way to create some technological build-up toward the Interstellar Movement Upgrade -- as you put it now, there is a single investment and *poof* it works. I would expect that hyperspacing an object of this magnitude would require scientific breakthroughs that can be applied in other areas as well. If, for example, the technology would be based on a hyperspace lane improvement tech(s), you could get other players interested as well. Toss in some construction or sensor related technology that benefits some other aspect of the game, and your set.

It might be a good idea to leave the interstellar movement open for later...


My proposal:

A) Wait for some more comments by others (or assume that they agree with me after a reasonable period of silence), and redo your technologies. Try and give some argumentation on how you determined the cost of the technology and the special projects, as this helps you and others to see what the position of the technology is.

B) Create a base technolgy. This can then be used as base for special project technologies (this allows others to easily place such technologies as well -- which helps you get collaborators for your research). With this base tech as a foundation, you can place your technologies in there. That would look something like this:



The base technology would be something along the lines of:

Astroengineering

Astroengineering encompasses the study of megascale engineering in space, or on a planetary scale. This technology is a foundation technology for further development into megascale engineering both on a planetary engineering and astronomical engineering scale.

Cost: 500 / 5

Costs and time of this base tech is based on the other base techs.

[Mercury]

Combat Moon Upgrade

Regular fleets have a maintenance cost of 10 per turn. It also requires a fleet zone which costs one zone plus up to 2000 .

I would split this up into a technology and a special project. The cost of the technology proposed by Brend, 4000 is double the worst case cost of a zone, which I think is reasonable.

I think the 5 , 1000 and 600 is reasonable for the actual upgrade. I would additionally rule however that it continuously drains 10 from the orbit it is in and that it requires upkeep as normal (10 / turn).

This places it on par with regular fleets with some additional cost for not requiring a fleet zone (but also without the additional benefits of a fleet zone such as scanning range). The Combat Moon would not be able to leave the star system and would thus always qualify as an Inactive Fleet.

I would propose placing some limits on upgrades on the moon.This is because I foresee the Combat Moon being somewhat more powerful than a regular fleet due to being able to house planetary defence zones on it - that would cause problems with the fleet system. At this time I don't know what kind of limitation would be balanced, so my suggestion would be to for now say "no limit" but to make a note that if it becomes a problem we may need to make some adjustments in the future.

Stellar Travel Moon Upgrade

I have a hard time judging the power of this. It does not seem problematic for me regardless. I'm curious to hear both your and Brends reasoning for the listed amounts.

Interstellar Movement Upgrade

At this point, I think the technology does not look like it will be taken very quickly (nor can it be). I am not conceptually against it (and I have not calculated the exact cost) but the point raised by Brend regarding the power requirement is relevant - since your moon has a power zone, I do think it is solvable.

I like Brends tech tree proposal here a lot (pretty too!), but I think this technology requires a lot more details and I'll have to calculate the value as best I can. All in all, with the price you listed, I think this technology is reasonable, but we need to make some careful calculations and balance things. What you have is a good start, but we need to fill in a lot of blanks I think. Which is something that should be doable ^_^

Astroengineering

I think this tech might offer something more, such as a Augmentation Zone upgrade for Capital Ships or something. Seems fitting to me.

[Brend]

Combat Moon Upgrade

The Combat Moon would not be able to leave the star system and would thus always qualify as an Inactive Fleet.

That would make it rather useless... Inactive fleets are not allowed to participate in combat. I think that it would behave just like a normal fleet with regards to upkeep.

Stellar Travel Moon Upgrade

In all fairness, I had no actual reasoning for this. It just seemed to me that the capability to move around masses as large as a small moon might be an expensive feat of engineering. (Especially as I can envision some other techs branching off of this one that would be a hoot: System-wide Autonomous Defence Grids, Solar Flare Collector Arrays, etc.)

The ability to move doesn't give any benefits of itself (except with a powerzone on it, or with a planetary defence zone). However, when combined with the Combat Moon Upgrade, the moon suddenly becomes a defensive powerhouse... Which I would value at at least 2000 .

Astroengineering

I think this tech might offer something more, such as a Augmentation Zone upgrade for Capital Ships or something. Seems fitting to me.

There are no third tier augmentation zones -- and for good reason, nobody will need them in the coming ~200 .

I would like an extra benefit as well though. Maybe we could increase the price of the tech and offer a more lucrative construction-type benefit?

[Brend]

After half an hour of discussion me and Elmer discovered some serious flaws in the Combat Moon tech.

A sampling of some of the problems:

• If the moon becomes a fleet, it has access to formations, and it can be boosted with a Jedi. Not really a problem in itself, but it quickly becomes iffy if you have a look at the special manoeuvres of the formations...
• The regaining of effectiveness levels is really broken: fleets require time, taxes and capital ships, worlds just regenerate them really fast -> this would be a regenerating fleet
• You can now attach an army to the moon, and station an army on the moon.

To sum it up: declaring that 'the moon is now a fleet' is bad and creates too many edge cases. We would have to create new combat rules just for this special moon -- and we don't want to.

We came up with a replacement technology: Instead of turning the moon into an army, why not create a special zone which can only be filled with a Planetary Defense Zone. This doesn't break anything, and makes the tech. more useful to others.

We propose the following:

Compacted Defence Facilities

By distributing defensive installations, either through launch on demand, permanent orbital presence or planet wide network of surface-to-space platforms, a planet's defensive capabilities can be increased without investing valuable real estate.

This technology allows the construction of Planetary Defence Grids.

Prerequisites: Astroengineering
Cost: 1500 / 6

Planetary Defence Grid

This special project creates a Planetary Defence Zone without actually taking up a zone on the world's surface. This zone does not count toward the total number of zones on the world.

Cost: 1800 , 200 , 400

Price of the special good is based on costing at least 2000 (the cost of a normal zone), and then some for the zonelessness (~1000 in this case).

[RemcoSwenker]

I like the suggestions you made for the two techs. allowing to defend without having to spend zones.

I do have one question is there a limit to how often we can place this Planetary Defence Grid on a planet?

[Brend]

I thought about that, and I think that we should only allow one. Further technologies could improve this -- with an accompanying increase on cost, of course ^_^

As it is a zone, you can actually apply normal zone upgrades (that are applicable to Planetary Defence Zones), so any research into that direction makes you benefit as well (one of the reasons we wanted to implement it as a zoneless zone).

[RemcoSwenker]

I like the thinking process for this so I'm even more in favour now.

The only thing I'm not sure about is Prerequisites: Astroengineering for the Compacted Defence Facilities. Unless you have a thought process your not sharing with us that would make this logical?

[Brend]

Heh. Good one. Originally, the defence grid was a grid of large weaponinzed sattelites.

I agree that, fluffed in the current way, it might be better to place it under Standard Template Construction.

[Mercury]

3000 for the equivalent of a planetary defence zone without using the zone seems cheap to me, especially since the technology itself is not very expensive. I would suggest a total price of 4000 instead and lower the technology cost to 1000 - this way the zone costs double the price of a regular zone. I'd also limit it to one per world.

In the future we might want to look into limits of what can be done in space as we also have a Lagrange Point Station for power transfers already, but I don't think that's an existing problem at the moment, so please ignore this.

I would additionally rule however that the Planetary Defence Grid would use power like a regular zone, i.e. 10 . After all, these defences don't power themselves.

We might consider placing this technology after Echani Reverse Engineering - the Echani are somewhat defensive regarding their territory so this would fit their world view.

We discussed several options now. For the sake of clarity, can we get a full review of what I need to stamp for approval?

[Brend]

Errrr. Why the note on eating power? It's just a normal Planetary Defence Zone... Of course it eats power, and you get to upgrade it too (should upgrades become available). Maybe this wasn't clear, and impacts the price?

[Elmer]

I will work to finish the proposed tech tree.

However I am against putting the Echani reverse engineering as a prerequisite for this tech. The tech was meant to fulfil the short and long term plans of the cradle, and the Echani reverse engineering does not fit in this picture, as the Teprogrena were doing this without Echani.

[Brend]

But having the knowledge of the Echani might allow you to be quicker and more efficient in reaching your goal. They do seem to be the distribute and defend type of culture. There is nothing wrong with learning from other cultures -- and if it takes away 20 of your research time...

[Elmer]

After discussion with Brend, we came up with the following: The planetary defence tech can have as prerequisite both Echani reverse Engineering and Standard template construction, (partially as RemcoSwenker also proposed.)

The Union has researched the Echani reverse engineering, so the fluff for my faction could be that the Teprogrena used the Echani reverse Engineering tech to speed the whole thing up.

[Mercury]

Sounds good to me!

[Brend]

For final approval: the planetary defence grid tech and special.

[Mercury]

[ Approved ]

[Elmer]

I see that the proposed tech have has 6 turns research time, while 1000 tax is impossible to divide by 6. I propose to change the research time to 8 turns. A player then spends 125 each instead of 166.666666666666666666

[Gerben]

I don't see why that fraction is a problem, as you are not required to provide funding for research each turn. If so desired, I could fund the research in turns 2 and 5, while duration of the research ticks away.

[Elmer]

I took the liberty to create wikipages for the techs:

Compacted defence facilities
Planetary defence grid

for some reason the techs wont show in the tech list though.

[Chriz]

I purged the wiki cache. They do now :)

[Brend]

Why did you change the research time to 8 . The technology was approved with 6 -> I changed the wiki to the approved version.

Also: Congratulations, this is the first technology that requires two prerequisites -- writers of tech tree code loves us now :P

[Mercury]

Also: Congratulations, this is the first technology that requires two prerequisites -- writers of tech tree code loves us now :P