Fwurg

[The Lifebringer Clans]

((This thread comes after all the political fuss that happens in here. Sorry for the rush, I'm just eager to get the negotiations started.

This thread is {Private] to negotiating partners in the Information Joint Venture. These currently are:
- Lifebringer Clans
- Sundarian Federation
- Socialist Republic of Niom
- Veolian Commonwealth
))

The Lifebringer Clans are the first to give a short presentation, outlining their envisioned form of the joint venture. Leading the Clans' delegation is Gaar Virenii, a young and enthusiastic Kiitik. He is flanked by a trio of older members of his race.

"Welcome, everyone. If you're all seated, I would like to get started. I will give a brief outline of our proposed model and the problems as we see them. After this presentation, the floor will be open to questions and free discussion. Other delegations are welcome to give presentations of their own, propose alternative solutions, etc.

Now then, as you know, we are here to find the optimal configuration of collecting and exchanging specialized information. We believe it would be a relatively simple thing to come to a one-time agreement between the participating nations. The Lifebringer Clans, however, would much rather focus on the long term view. If it is possible to create a system that benefits all participants equally, and scales well, we can set a precedent. The agreement reached here could be reused for other joint ventures, improving trade and increasing welfare throughout the system.

To business. There are two main models that we see:

One, each faction constructs his own Corporation, and specializes his zones using that corporation. This marginally increases tax income, but results in an increase in required trade capacity.

Two, each faction constructs one corporation, but exchanges zoning rights with other factions, so that each faction develops a diverse portfolio of specialized products within their own system. This reduces the tax benefit gained from specialized zones, but eliminates the need for trade capacity.

Preliminary analysis shows that the difference in trade capacity is much more valuable than the difference in tax gains between these two models. The trade capacity could also be used for exhanging goods to complete higher quality tax sets, for example. This difference is so great that in our opinion, the monolithic per-faction approach is infeasible.

I will give you an outline of our proposed agreement: A faction desiring to join this joint venture constructs one corporation. To participate, that faction gives other factions the right to specialize one of their zones using the new participant's corporation. In exchange for this right, each other participating faction grants the new participant the right to specialize one of his own zones using that faction's corporation. In effect, all participants exchange zoning rights, 1:1.

This is the most simple case, which works splendidly for one specialized zone, and at least three participating factions. There are a several issues that need resolving, however, most notably that of scalability and that of a relative disadvantage for the first two participants.

At this point, if anyone has questions about our proposed model, I would like to answer those first. After this, I would like to open the floor to other participants, giving priority to those with widely different ideas about what an optimal agreement would look like."

[Lady Peinaili de Montrève]

Thomas Pendra, a relatively young and new member of the Sundarian Federation, sits eagerly during the presentation of the Lifebringer Clans` representative. The last few days a lot his time and effort have gone into the preparations of this summit and now that its finally down to the negotiation table, he has trouble controlling his nerves. This is the first time that he is entrusted with a responsibility of this magnitude, and he can't help but feel a bit on edge not to let the Lady de Montrève down, or drawn a wrong impression to himself in any way.

After the Young Kiitik had finished his presentation, Thomas forced himself to wait, at least till a reasonable period had past, so that the information could sink in. The proposal was not very different from the first suggestion done by Lady Peinailli, therefore his reaction could be short, and he was glad, controlling his nerves took him more effort then he had hoped.

" Given the 2 choices presented here, we feel that the second option proposed is a more favorable one, as opposed to the first, mainly because the limiting factor in most of our dealing is tradefleet capacity. The second proposal seems to be an elegant way around this problem.

Furthermore we agree to the incentive that the taxbenefits gained from a corp. stand in no proportion to the equal gains and benefit of having the seperate specialised zones in our own systems. I therefore move to second the proposal to exchange zone rights. "

[Supreme Judge Khaw Rohana]

Lady Khaw silently registered the opinions of both young representatives. She tried to be especially calm and interested during the short statement of Thomas Pendra, who she perceived as both rather nervous and a capable speaker and negotiator.

After representative Pendra finished his statement lady Khaw took some time to process the information and reflect on the exact intonations and other subtle hints of emotional state. When, after a short period, nobody else took the floor lady Khaw rose from her seat and moved to the dais.

"I must say that it is refreshing to skip the political posturing and directly talk to those genuinely interested in economics. Let the senators and emperors politic as they wish, in the end they all bow to the might of the economy," lady khaw said calmly and with a slight smile in the direction of representative Pendra.

"Both models of economy have their merit, but I will agree that the cost of transporting quickly becomes prohibitive. We shall therefore have to focus our efforts on the second model. There are some points that should be discussed about this model that make it appear rather uncapitalistic." Lady Khaw Rohana waited some time to allow for the inevitable hustle of assistants picking up note-taking devices of all kinds.

"First off, the perceived disadvantage of the first two participants. I do not think that the first two participants will ever be just that; they will not be the first two participants if they did not have a third partner in mind. The economy does not allow specialisation without a triangular joint venture, so this is not really an issue."

"A larger issue is the scalability. Assume, if you will, the implementation of the second model with a 1-on-1 exchange of zoning rights. Now imagine a joint venture of three partners Alek, Bardos and Charis. Each of these partners has three zones available, and each of these partners has exchanged with the other two the rights to specialize a zone. So far this joint venture has been most profitable, as each partner sees his production double. Now picture a fourth possible partner Delar. Delar has four zones available for specialization, so he can double his output if he joins in. To obtain optimal benefits the existing three partners should all invest in an extra zone, otherwise they will not gain anything from the exchange of zoning rights." lady Khaw looked around the room quickly, and flashed a smile at representative Pendra when she saw he was more relaxed now.

"To continue the example: assume that both Alek and Bardos are willing to invest an extra zone to optimize their production. Now also imagine that Charis does not wish to do so because his market has already been saturated. In the proposed model Charis just freely give away the rights to specialize a zone, whilst not gaining anything in return next to the negligible 1 tax per week. He has the option of specialising, but he does not wish to overproduce so this option is worth next to nothing to him. This is the issue that vexes me about the current proposal."

[Lady Peinaili de Montrève]

It felt good to be noticed by the other representatives of the other faction, and it gave Thomas the edge of confidence which he needed to get over his tensions in the beginning of the negotiations. After he listened to the points brought to attention by the representative of the Veolian Commonwealth, he again to a turn to speak.

" We thank the Lady Khaw for her comment and the mentioning of this point of interest to all parties involved and we share the believe that there would indeed be no disadvantage for the first two parties in this joint venture, simply because they have no merit without a third party.

However the point of partners beyond the third is what i believe the true topic of this summit. As clear at it might be for people with large demands for Information, which would have little problems with a 4th or 5th partners, since they would need the supply to support their economy either way; I agree that a solution must be found for partners that do not wish to commit more zones then the necessary 3 zones. According to the current proposal, these partners should still free give the right to specialize, but receive no compensation for not specializing a zone themselves, besides the 1 tax compensation. "

Thomas looked around the table as he took a moment to catch his breath, and consult briefly with some of the other members of the Sundarian delegation and his aides before he continued:

" It is my opinion, that this problem can be resolved through negotiations between said parties, with an eye on the fact that specialization in bases hold a value of 1000 and generates 10 per turn. However the gain in production capacity and thus in actual profit for the specializing party is much greater, and moreover, is permanent.

Furthermore we would like to raise the point, that if we can agree on a compensation for a zone right, we might not need every partner involved beyond the 3rd to have a corp of their own. We propose the following compensation, an upfront payment of 750 and a following 25 per turn. "

[Supreme Judge Khaw Rohana]

Lady Khaw looked pensive for a moment. "Can you go into a bit more detail of your view of this compensation? For example, is the proposed compensation in lieu of the exchanged zoning rights -- do you propose that the price of the specialisation of a single zone is 750 tax plus 25 tax per week?"

[Lady Peinaili de Montrève]

"Lady Khaw, " Thomas replied, clearly somewhat puzzled " Let me clarify what i meant to say. I'm proposing that should a party not wish to use the mutual right of zone exchange, the other party should pay the compensation.

Therefore in your example, Charis should be entitled to the compensation by Delar, since he clearly doesn't wish to specialize more zones of his own ( which he would be entitled to, in accordance with the 1:1 exchange of zone rights) , assuming that Charis has a corp. of his own, which partakes in this joint venture, and that Delar wishes to specialize a zone with Charis' corp.

Does that clarify this matter? "

Thomas asked, after he had finished his explanation.

[Senator Ght'Twwf of the Socialist Republic of Niom]

The Senator from the Socialist Republic of Niom spoke slowly and monotonously, every word in the same tempo and pitch, without any pauses.

"The issue raised by Lady Khaw also concerns the Socialist Republic of Niom.

Additionally, we are concerned that regardless of the number of members, building information zones will be mandatory to be in threes. With three specialised information zones, each of a different type, this would double production, but what if the ideal number of information zones is not divisible by three?

Also, what if the zones do not offer identical amounts of production, due to specific local circumstances? The lowest zone production would become leading and all zones with higher production would waste resources.

The losses in tax income are also on a per-turn basis, whereas the investment in transportation may be a one-time cost, depending on the situation.

Finally, the Socialist Republic of Niom has already invested in specialising several zones and it does not look forward to having to invest to re-specialise these zones with other corporations who will bring in far fewer taxes.

We agree that option two may indeed be cheaper, but we warn against overlooking various factors that may reduce the total profitability. It is our experience that quick estimates are often more positive than the final cost breakdown, when all factors are accounted for, so we warn against making hasty decisions based on quick estimates.

For this reason, we encourage all members to request their bureaucracies be extra thorough in their efforts."

The Socialist Republic of Niom's own bureaucracy was known for being thorough. And for being as slow as it's Senator's way of talking.

"The Socialist Republic of Niom has some technological know-how that may aid in reducing the cost of transporting large quantities of information that it may be willing to share.

It would also like to propose that this agreement to work together in mutual cooperation is within the spirit of the Union's charter. Perhaps we should draw up a proposal asking for a subsidy?"

[Supreme Judge Khaw Rohana]

Attentive participants saw a hint of surprise flash through Lady Khaw's face when the subject turned to transportation of information. When senator Ght'Twwf was finished she started, without any time to think: "The bureaucracy of the Socialist Republic is known for it's thoroughness, but apparently they have missed a very beautiful opportunity to show so. It is decidedly unnecessary to build information zones in threes."

Lady Khaw produced a quick sketch of a table, and used the available holo display to show her calculation to the rest of the attendees.

Code: Select all

Types       A     B     C     D    Total
Output    300   300   300   300     1200
                   
Trios                   
A+B+C     100   100   100            300
A+B+D     100   100         100      300
A+C+D     100         100   100      300
B+C+D           100   100   100      300


"It is possible to define a simple production-balanced system with any number of zones. Take for example entities A,B,C and D, and imagine that each of these entities has a corporation and four zones. Entity A can now quite simply define four trios of specialised zones: (A,B,C), (A,B,D), (A,C,D) and (B,C,D). The produce of all A-specialised zones will be split in three and assigned to the first three production trios; the produce of all other specialised zones will be split and assigned in the same way. Thus delivering the optimal production output."

Lady Khaw continued without leaving any time for questions: "This system can be extended in a simple manner to both cover increasing numbers of specialisations by defining a larger set of trios. It can also handle uneven production balances by taking the lowest production figure available, and determining the trios that include this specialisation. When this is done, the system is applied again, but on the modified production figures of all zones with a surplus above the minimum production. If there is still overcapacity, the system will be applied again and again, thus minimizing the amount of lost products."

"As you can see, it is not necessary to worry about either the building of zones in groups of three. The problem of some zones producing less than others can be mitigated by having a large number of participants, thus leaving only the two highest producing zones with an actual surplus of specialised product."

Assuming everyone caught on to her system, Lady Khaw switched gears and directed her attention to Senator Ght'Twwf.

"If the Socialist republic has technical expertise that may aid in the transport of large quantities of information, this might indeed mean a revisit of the first proposal; however, I must be convinced by numbers before I can advice this course of action to the Commonwealth -- a subsidy might go a long way toward helping me convince the Commonwealth of this idea."

[The Lifebringer Clans]

The seats of the Lifebringer Clans are a beehive of activity, and each proposal is met with calculations, projections, and extrapolations. After some discussion, Gaar Virenii stands, trying to summarize the discussion up to now.

"We would like to thank all participants for their contributions. We have put forth the most simple of models, and noted it was flawed in the area of scalability. Both the Sundarian delegation and the Veolian delegation have highlighted and analysed these flaws, and have provided valuable potential solutions. And in such a short timespan... we agree with Lady Rohana's observation: it is refreshing to deal in such a straightforward manner.

Now, the The Socialist Republic of Niom has opted to defend another model for exchange, one that relies on trade fleets, but would increase tax revenue. I must note that for developing economies, the size of their trade fleets is the factor limiting their income. Moreover, the reliance on trade fleets increases interstellar traffic greatly, especially when more and more of these joint ventures are created. Third, it would increase the amount of trade fleets each of us would be required to maintain. Maintenance cost would start to become a factor as well.

However, we are still interested in a detailing of these techniques that would allow us to transport all this information. Additionally, we approve of the idea of requesting a subsidy."

A [private] message is sent to the table of Lady Rohana:

Code: Select all

We believe to have discovered a counterexample to your proposed algorithm for optimally creating trios out of unequal sets of specialized products:
Types     A     B     C     D  Total
Output  300   400   700   700   2100
R1:     300   300   300   300   1200
R2:       0   100   100   100    300
remaining:          300   300

Where 300 A+C+D and 400 B+C+D would use all resources.

We believe your primary points still stand: good solutions can be found for processing any number of different types of specializations of a material,
 and an optimal solution for building 'trios' out of an uneven pool of specialized materials can be found.

 - Lifebringer Clans delegation


((OOC: does this forum have spoiler blocks?))

[Supreme Judge Khaw Rohana]

"I think we should hear out Senator Ght'Twwf's information transportation suggestion before passing judgement on this. I do not think the good senator was aiming for an increased number of trade fleets. A good point about the possible tax revenues has been made already; If this is not outweighed by the required investments in trade capacity the senator will have a strong argument in favour of the exchange model."

Lady Khaw patiently waited for Senator Ght'Twwf to take it from here.


Lady Khaw replies with a [private] message to the Lifebringer table:

Code: Select all

You are right of course. It is good to see such young people pick up the errors of an old lady.

I should have thought about my statement a tad longer. But then again, it will not do to see those priding themselves on an efficient bureaucracy make such ridiculous claims and still give us advice about our own bureaucracies.


[Senator Ght'Twwf of the Socialist Republic of Niom]

"The Veolian representative assumes that there will be at least four corporations to make her smart scheme work. Our multiples of three was under the assumption of three corporations but was worded in an unfortunate manner. With option two, adding a fourth corporation into the mix is crucial to allow the flexibility suggested by the Veolian representative.

At this time, we are the only member that actually has a corporation and we are concerned that if we enter this agreement, we will not be able to secure three additional members who are willing to commit to a treaty in this regard. Before we commit to anything we should have some level of certainty that at least three other nations will participate."

He paused a moment, a welcome break in his monotonous droning up of words, but then continued.

"While we agree that there will always be an optimal solution, I must reiterate the earlier point that the optimum situation in which there is no waste product is guaranteed most easily with option one. In that case, waste cost is determined over the entire group, rather than for each individual world.

Additionally, when adding zones to an existing set-up or when new members join, there is the risk of additional losses in efficiency. With beautiful round numbers and balanced zone production it all works out, but in a real environment this situation will not always be the case.

We are not saying that option one or option two is better, we are simply urging members to take into account that there will be losses due to inefficiency and that these will be larger with option two than with option one. This should be taken into account before a final decision is made."

He paused once more, almost as if to draw breath.

"Finally, we want to point out that information can be transferred by Holonet Relays, not just trade fleets. This can allow for significant savings in transportation cost. Our technology can further reduce this as it can reduce the cost of maintenance for Holonet Relays, which could otherwise become prohibitive when maintaining multiple Holonet Relays."

[The Lifebringer Clans]

The Lifebringer Clans negotiator succesfully maintains his concentration during the Niom Senator's monotonous argumentation. Mostly. Luckily, his aides have taken turns listening, and can provide him with a complete set of notes. Compelled to respond, Gaar Virenii stands:

"The Senator raises valuable points. Holonet relays seem to be a potential boon to this joint venture, especially if the maintenance cost of these relays can be kept sufficiently low. We must note, however, that the additional cost of building a system of relays connecting our sectors and allowing for the transfer of these quantities of information is quite large. Let us study a simple case as an illustration.

Suppose the Sundarian Federation, the Lifebringer Clans, and the Socialist Republic of Niom found a corporation. Each specializes one zone, doubling the base production of 210 to 420 specialized information. Each party then trades 140 information with each other participant. This requires 560 holonet capacity. Studying the map, assuming the Lifebringer Clans can come to an agreement with the Miomanian Colonists, each of us would have to invest in holonet relay stations for two sectors. Let's assume we all have unused bandwidth in our home sector, leaving us with three holonet relays to be constructed. This costs 1500 . These costs begin to approach that of constructing a second information zone instead of specializing an existing one. We also note that our relative placement is quite fortitious. Were the Veolians to join, for example, the size of the Holonet that would need to be constructed would be prohibitive to say the least.

We see a second flaw. Niom is worried about the feasibility of upscaling their own production under a distributed company model. We posit there will be similar problems if they are managing only their own specialized material. The problem is simple: in order to increase their production, they not only need to specialize more zones of their own, they need to find two other parties willing to do the same. This requires negotiations, negotiations made more difficult by the fact that other nations will be required to invest. In order to facilitate Niom growth, they will have to dedicate resources to increasing their own information production.

In the distributed company model, each party is more or less responsible for their own production. If one party wishes to upgrade their production, it is not necessary that other parties follow. If other parties do not wish to expand, they can be offered all sorts of compensation for their zoning rights instead. This gives the expanding party much more room to negotiate.

Finally, we agree with the Socialist Republic of Niom that a four-company joint venture is more stable and would facilitate production upscaling. Assurances from four parties that they will found a corporation could potentially become part of the agreement, if four parties are willing to agree on this. Our assesment of the situation is the following: Niom has already founded a corporation; The Clans and the Sundarians have short-term plans to found a corporation; The Veolians are interested in founding a corporation in the longer term. I will be open here: the Clans will participate in this joint venture with three founding parties initially starting a corporation. If the Veolians pledge to start a company at a later date, around turn 15-20 for example, that would be sufficient guarantee for us. "

[Supreme Judge Khaw Rohana]

Although she did not show any signs of disinterest during the monotonous speech of Senator Ght'Twwf, Lady Khaw spent most of the speech studying the other delegations in attendance. She seemed to be spending a rather large amount of her time studying the Sundarian delegation.

"I will be open as well -- I have not been authorized to ratify any treaty this summit might produce. I will advice Senator Nehket about the pros and cons of the proposed treaty, and will do this with an objective and open point of view."

Lady Khaw turned her attention towards Senator Ght'Twwf, and continued: "Dear senator, I'm afraid my hearing has failed me; I have missed the efficiency factor your technology can provide on the maintenance upkeep. Would you be so kind as to repeat the exact amount of maintenance reduction?"

[The Lifebringer Clans]

((There's an IC/OOC disconnect here I am unsure how to handle. IC, this meeting is relatively short, but OOC, weeks have passed since its initial setup. Time is running out for the Clans, so I'll have to be more direct. If people have alternate formulations of this basic message, please let me know.))

As time passes, the Lifebringer Clans' delegation becomes more impatient. Many alternatives are discussed, but little real progress is made. Private communications with other parties have shown promise, but this meeting in a larger group appear to be stagnating. It is time to try a different tack.

The Clans' delegation rises, and gives their statement. "These discussions have brought us many insights useful to establishing a joint venture in the long term. However, as time passes, our short-term needs are becoming more pressing. Therefore, we would like to take some time to form a minimal agreement with the other parties. Our information indicates that the Sundarian Federation, the Republic of Niom, and ourselves are the three parties with either a corporation or the capacity and desire to create one in the short term. Therefore, I will send these two other parties a proposal"

The Lifebringer Clans send a private message to the delegations of the Niom Republic and the Sundarian Federation.

"This proposal follows the outline of a distributed model, in which each party specializes one zone with each corporation.

We acknowledge the Niom objections of differently-sized zones as something that must be addressed in the long term. In this minimal treaty, it is unlikely to be an issue. As far as we are aware, both the Sundarian Federation and the Lifebringer Clans have three evenly-sized zones ready for specialization.

Secondly, there is the Niom objection of having specialized zones with their own corporation already. To this, we reply in the following way: Does Niom have no outlet for this specialized information? If so, why did they specialize these zones? Additionally, you only require two other, unspecialized zones of information. Specializing these with different corporations will go a long way to utilizing the current KnowDisc production.

The third issue we see is that specializing in information will cause information production to drop for a short period of time. To alleviate this problem, we propose short-term trade as a solution. Additionally, this is an area in which the Union could support this endeavor. It is a short term project, supplying our nations with the trade capacity to make it through a few difficult turns, and relatively cheap. This investment will soon pay off for the Union as well, as our increased economic growth will lead to more taxable income. In this way, the Union can be a catalyst. "

((OOC: see PM))

[Veolian Commonwealth]

((OOC: I was trying to elicit a reply from the Niom ambassador with my question (not so) cunningly disguised as a hearing problem. This appears to have silenced the whole thread since everyone waits for a reply that does not come. I'm not sure how we should handle this either -- I was under the impression that this summit was called for the sole reason of producing a deal or treaty in which the attendants could participate. Since I do not have the idea that the discussion is over, or that actual days have passed (I was under the impressions that the summit would last a few days at most) I propose we actually continue the discussion and just ignore the ignorant ambassador?

@Revenant: I am confused as to the reason of the exclusion of the Commonwealth from the talks about cooperation. I'm not sure whether the current exclusion of the Commonwealth is an IC decision, or one based on OOC information. So a word of warning: Private messages are private, but if it appears that the Veolian Delegation came to the summit just to be ignored while the other parties strike a back room deal, they will take this as a grievous insult. One that will have serious repercussions for any dealings the Commonwealth will have with any of the attending parties. -- Since I'm not sure whether this was very interesting IC political manoeuvring, or just OOC miscommunication, I will wait for any replies before the Commonwealth acts upon this possible insult.

EDIT: Just heard that the admin was working on a tech page with the actual information, but dit not have a concrete version yet.... Would have been very happy with this information earlier, as it might have kept this thread going.
))

[The Lifebringer Clans]

((OOC: yeah, I think everyone was waiting for Niom.

The reason for my rush is simple, me and Gerben would like to start building a corporation on turn 8. The Lifebringer Clans started this negotiation two weeks ago, but progress has slowed to a crawl. From an economic standpoint, the LC can't afford to let this take another two weeks, they need a deal soon. So the idea is to just focus on a minimal agreement between three parties, and continue negotiations for a larger construction in the mean time.

This means me and Gerben can't ignore the ambassador, we need his Corporation.

This move is for OOC concerns only: each post/reply takes so long that if I do anything but focus on the basic essentials of hammering out a deal, it's going to take too long.

If we can solve this OOC/IC discrepancy by saying this minimal 3-way deal takes place -after- these broader negotiations, I would be much happier. I certainly wasn't planning on excluding the Veolians, it's just that negotiating with so many parties slows the negotations tremendously from a RL-time perspective.

In the message, I've been pretty much forced to drop all the niceties and preliminaries and just state a complete treaty draft, because anything more complicated takes too long.

I'd like to talk to the admin about this, if possible. Again, I'm moving so fast, because I have to, for OOC reasons only. I'm not really happy about it. ))

[Mercury]

(( OOC: This is a forum, not a face-to-face tabletop game. One of the understandings of that is things go slow - you have time to reply at your leisure and sometimes you will have to wait for others.

It also means that you can easily make conversations out of turn - you don't need to wait politely for each person to reply in order, you can continue the conversation with another in parallel on parallel topics.

I do not feel it is fair to blame this all on a slow NPC response. There are three players, that is enough to make a deal - I challenge the assertion that the exact maintenance cost of one option for transportation of the goods you produce is going to be the deciding factor in whether or not to build a Corporation. ))

[The Lifebringer Clans]

((OOC: My choice of words was unfortunate. I'm understand of the NPC speed itself. This is to be expected in a forum rpg. Things are taking longer than I had anticipated, but that's my fault for broadening the scope for these negotations too much. I'm unhappy with the general situation, but I accept that it is of my own making.

I have edited my IC post to allow the Veolians to participate in the conversation. I hope nobody minds. ))

[Veolian Commonwealth]

((OOC: I'm also understanding of the speed NPCs react with, I was mostly surprised by the exclusion, and might have projected my frustration about that onto the whole issue.

@admin: Please accept my apologies for being a bit harsh... Alhtough I would have liked some indication that things were in the making, it makes it easier to continue on without feeling inpolite.

I accept that things move slower, but I joined this summit mainly as an interested party, not as a direct participant -- something which was clear to Revenant and Gerben, but might not have been known by admin due to privateness of messages.

Let's chalk this up to some communication confusion and continue on with the fun.
))

[Senator Ght'Twwf of the Socialist Republic of Niom]

"The Burocracy has provided an answer in regards to the question by Lady Khaw Rohana.

The document is now sent to all Senators."

A document was sent to all Senators.

http://83.163.184.178:81/dokuwiki/rules:technologies

(( OOC: this is a preliminary version. The technology mentioned will remain the same, but the details about how technology works may change in the future. This at least should allow you an answer to what you need. ))

[The Lifebringer Clans]

The Lifebringer Clans delegation responds:

"A most useful technology in the long term, Senator. Now that prices have been mentioned, it is time to get down to calculations.

Our current proposal has a price tag of 7000 for the Sundarian Federation and us, and 2000 for the Republic of Niom. There are added costs during the setup phase, but we hope to be able to mitigate them.

A proposal involving each party building Holonets costs the Sundarian Federation an additional 1000 , and the Lifebringer Clans an additional 1500 , plus 25 maintenance per turn.

We cannot estimate the costs for the Rebublic of Niom, as we have no data on their Holonet capacities or their information zoning layout. We acknowledge the possibility that the monolithic solution using holonet trade has a lower cost for Niom. Since the first proposed solution costs Niom only 2000 , this means that in the best case, a solution using holonet relays is overall 500 more expensive than our proposed solution. If Niom needs to construct additional holonet relays, such as in ( 14,-6 ), the cost increases further.

We acknowledge that our proposal is less beneficial to the Rebuplic of Niom. If Niom is willing to provide more data concerning their information zoning plan and Holonet layout, we may be able to devise an adequate compensation.

Our cost analysis may change depending on the kind of Union support we can get for this operation. We see several options here. The Union may support us by providing the goods we need through the transition phase into incorporated information production. They might also help by providing trade capacity to help us exchange information through the transition phase, helping us help ourselves as it were. Finally, if we pursue a second, Niom plan, they might support us by subsidizing the construction of Holonet relays.

Since the Republic of Niom has been a member of the Union for much longer than we have been, they undoubtedly have more experience in dealing with the Union ministries. What type of subsidy request does the Republic of Niom see as the most likely to succeed?"

[Senator Ght'Twwf of the Socialist Republic of Niom]

"At this time, the Niom Republic still supports trade over zoning exchange. However, we have no opposition to zoning exchanges between other members.

Regarding the subsidies:

Developing corporations is not likely to receive direct funding from the Union, as it is not of general benefit. However, the Union may be willing to aid its young members by helping provide some information during any transitional phase.

We also believe the Union might provide funding to set up a holonet network along the Bozzy Spine lines. We want to point out that this additional capacity could be beneficial not just to us, but also to the Confederacy of Excaria and the Holy Heimgolian Theocracy.

Both worlds are hungry for resources and may be willing to help us attain subsidies for capacity in exchange for some of the information being exchanged."

[Supreme Judge Khaw Rohana]

"In my opinion the course of action suggested by the honourable senator is the right one to follow, especially since the Veolian Commonwealth has already started on a holonet pathway in the same sectors the Bozzy Spine currently occupies.

We have recently constructed holonet relays in sectors 10 -6, 11 -6 and 12 -7. It could be very good for our proposed subsidy if others would see that a serious effort has already been made -- we would very much like to connect the already available holonet pathway to the pathways necessary for the exchange of corporated information. This would benefit the Kingdom of Komez as well, so would likely provide for even better support of the subsidy."

Lady Khaw looked pensive for a moment.

"I think that I can convince the Veolian senator to support the proposed subsidy, but I fear that she will want to see at least some compensation for those holonet relays already invested in by the Commonwealth. I think it is not possible to reason with her that union member initiative is penalized by being excluded from subsidies."

[The Lifebringer Clans]

"We understand the eagerness of some nations to attempt to procure a subsidy for Holonet development in the Bozzy Spine sectors. We must note, however, that in the case of this trade, our most logical trade routes do not use Bozzy Spine sectors, making this subsidy useless to us. Moreover, the route utilizing the Bozzy Spine would pass through the sector of the Excarians and the Heimgolians, meaning this route would involve additional costs, concerns, issues, negotiations, and so on. This is not our preferred solution.

Again, we state our case. We are constructing a whole out of three parts. The first option is to construct these parts next to each other, and combine them on the spot. The second option is to produce these parts 7500 lightyears apart, and build an enormous trading infrastructure to transport these parts in order to combine them.

The first solution is simply much more cost-effective, at least for the Lifebringer Clans. "

[Supreme Judge Khaw Rohana]

"I disagree with the Lifebringer Clans that the most logical route would not follow the Bozzy spine. The Sundarian Federation needs a connection to the trade network as well, leaving negotiations with either Miomanian Colonists, or the Techno Zaibatsu. Alas, I am not a hyperspace engineer, and will leave this matter to the more proficient."

"I do agree that the solution of exchanging zoning rights would be much more cost-efficient. But it is also a permanent commitment. I can see a downside to the permanency of this commitment, and I assume the representative of Niom also has this in mind: once the deal has been struck and zoning rights have been exchanged nothing prevents either partner from freely backstabbing their trade partners on other deals."

Lady Khaw glanced at the Niom representatives to guess their reaction, but could not make anything out due to the large difference in social culture between the two factions.

"Since both the Sundarian Federation and the Lifebringer Clans have already established their respective corporations, a certein level of commitment has been reached. However, I have not yet gained any indication of the possibility of an accord. To summarize the current situation: The Lifebringer Clans are in favour of exchanging zoning rights, while the Socialist Republic of Niom is in favour of trading the specialized goods through infrastructure.

The Veolian Commonwealth can see the merits of both methods of cooperation, but the loss of control that comes with the first alternative might prevent my superiors from signing off on this."I'm unsure as to the position of the Sundarians in this."

Lady Khaw flashed a smile to the Sundarian representative, inviting him to speak.