Fwurg

[Shadow of War]

"By having lost a lot more than what we have regained by now. In those 220 years we lost 2 billion people. Like I said we would be extinct if we hadn't done what was needed. We had an estimated population of 5 billion after the Cataclysm. We only recently past the 4 billion mark again. Back then there where massive panics. Most children didn't live long enough to reach an age where they could reproduce. The measures we took in an attempt to increase survival rates were bordering on the extreme. Our same sex reproduction technology was developed towards that purpose as well.

It wasn't a baby-boom, it was a lack of people dying. A lack of children dying to be precise. We Astrians consider that to be our greatest triumph.

The massive research and development funds we had created to ensure our survival as a species, remained for several decades after that. Until we finally dissolved the funds a few years before we joined the Union."

[Danar Sylvia]

"I think I understand.

You, Astrians, were used to have a lot of children around, but most of them never grew old enough to be productive, and so, the sudden growth of population was not that big of an problem as it would have been if there would actually be ten times more people around.

If I may ask, why is your name Shadow of War? We of the Consensus don't believe that is a normal name. So did you choose it for yourself?"

((OOC: To prevent misunderstanding: Even though fluffwise it is allowed to fluff your history the way you like, I think a growth of roughly 0.3 to 3.0 in 200 years have big IC consequences, though I think it is believable that having a lot of children not growing up is a nice explanation :). Also, I already discovered a long time ago that the economical growth is by far not a realistic growth, just look at the Veolian Commonwealth and their population growth of billions and billions within 2 years. Therefore I often just try to ignore those unrealistic numbers and go with what creates the best roleplay ;).))

[Shadow of War]

"You are correct, Shadow of War is not a normal name. And yes I did choose it for myself. Every Traveller chooses their name. The reason we choose a certain name is often highly personal.

Astrians generally don't have any significant attachment to their name, we see it as a way to identify people but no more then that. Changing names is not a very difficult process in our society. Parents can give their children a different last name then their own and that happens regularly. People most often change their names when there is a significant change in their life. Becoming a Traveller is about as big a change it can get for an Astrian."

((OOC: I think you misread something. I said the population decreased BY 0.3 , not TO 0.3 . I also think a few things must have been very confusing for you. Seeing as I kept talking about a DECREASE in population. After all the Astrians where heading towards extinction, you need a decrease in numbers to do that.))

[Danar Sylvia]

"Do you like to tell why Shadow of War? As this is a name carries certain meanings with it.

And can you explain your naming scheme a little further?

We of the Consensus believe that the surname or last name often is used to identify the family of an individual. Within the Consensus we don't have families like that. Our families are not born out of fathers and mothers, but out of Consults. Therefore we only have one name, and titles to identify the social status of a person.

How does this work in the ACA? If you change the last name of your child, has that name still any meaning?"

((OOC: Oh wait, I have indeed read it wrong, that explains ^^. I still like your explanation though :).))

[Shadow of War]

"We don't really hold much value to blood relations of people. At least not in the way most other worlds have.

Our society treats the child of a rich person the same as the child of a convicted criminal. Changing a name doesn't break the bond between people. Especially if those bonds are family bonds. Take myself for example, I am about as different from a regular Astrian as an Astrian can get. However I am still the child of someone, I have siblings and I'm even an uncle and granduncle. That will not change if I change my form, my name or even if I become a different person.

To us a last name simply adds a variable for identifying someone.

As a number of Teprogrenaians are cyborgs, I am sure you know the line between a person and a machine can become a bit blurry. Do your people have any standard by which you determine whether or not something or someone is sentient or not?"

[Danar Sylvia]

"Our definition of sentient is not very well defined, however we only make cyborgs out of living species. Mostly Teprogrena, sometimes humans or Twi'lek and in occasion any other species living here. We have a clear definition of when someone is alive or not, therefore the line between man and machine is not that difficult as well.

Concerning cyborgs being sentient it is relative easy: Cyborgs are made from organic beings, therefore as long as a person keeps the mental attributes, he is pretty much sentient. It is like someone in a coma or who is brain dead, such a person is not sentient. A cyborg with no brain function is not sentient either.

The Consensus is still uncertain about the IO protocol. As it is a set of computer programs, we are still in discussion if we can consider such a construct sentient or just some program following its instructions and programming. But how far are we as biological beings sentient or just following our natural programming? This discussion is very difficult and we don't have an answer for that. If you are interested in this topic, we of the Consensus can recommend Fecta Legin. He is more educated in this topic than I am.

Does the ACA have definitions around sentient beings and cyborgs?"

[Shadow of War]

"As a matter of fact we do. We have four tiers by which we define beings and objects. Based on those tiers we also define what rights they have.

The fourth and lowest tier is the non-living tier. What can't react to any form of stimuli, except for reactions defined by the laws of physics. Basically these are lifeless objects and thus they have no rights.

The third tier is the reaction tier. Things that can reflexively react to stimuli, but otherwise have no concious thought. Most plants fall under this tier, but simple computer systems also fall under this. As well as certain types of droids. While they are considered living, because they have no intelligence or conciousness they don't have any rights either.

The second tier is the living tier. Beings that can react to stimuli, have limited learning capability and can perform concious acts. These would be animals, advanced computer systems and most droids. These beings are considered alive and have limited intelligence and conciousness. Because of this they have the right to be treated with some respect, but they can still be owned and traded.

The first and last tier is the sentient tier. Beings that can react to stimuli, have high to unlimited learning capacity and can create new concepts. Basically people and AI. The rights we grant tier 1 beings are numerous. Freedom, equality, education and even life are basic rights everyone has at least in the ACA. People can't be owned but they can own from the lower tiers."

[Danar Sylvia]

"How handles the ACA the definition of life which forms the basic rules for the Union as decided during the Great Intergalactic Discussion of Life?"

[Shadow of War]

"We don't. As I understand it those rules are mainly used to select new possible members and to make certain decisions. In neither case the ACA has real say in the matter, so it is of little concern to us.

Besides I think the entire definition of life the Union uses is ridicules. Saying only things connected with the Force are alive. It's like saying only anything with a nose is alive."

[Danar Sylvia]

"Then we of the Great Discussion of Life Consult think that you or the ACA are very poorly informed.

It is true that the discussion is started because in the Senate were discussions about when someone or things are alive and how this would influence the Union laws. But everybody in the Union was invited to join the discussion and the rules are created by the group of very intelligent people who participated. The ACA was invited as well, so not to participate was their own choice. The set of rules serve mainly one function: to determine what 'alive' is. The Union on their hand uses this definition for their own laws and rules.

And your analogy between a nose and the force is poorly chosen. Therefore we dare you to find one example of a group of entities which have no connection to the force but are alive according to you."

[Shadow of War]

"Yes, we did have the chance to join the discussion. I was rather disappointed my people didn't. I supported joining the discussion.

I find it rather strange that first you say I'm misinformed, only to agree with my point later. The ACA barely has influence in the Union when it comes to making laws and rules. The fact of the matter is that the Union doesn't require it's members to obey their definition, so why should we adopt it?

As for a group of entities with no connection to the Force. I would call the IO Protocol to be alive. Besides I see being intelligent as a more important quality then being alive."

[Danar Sylvia]

"Isn't it so that because the ACA remains rather distant to the Union you of your people have little influence in the Union? I mean if your faction is less willing to adopt the efforts members of the Union put in business like creating a clear definition of being alive, than the other members are less willingly to cooperate with you of the ACA as well. Of course you are free do so, but it creates very little goodwill.

In fact, that you are not adopting the definition of life partly because you don't have to sounds more like the reasoning of a little child who just learned to say 'no' and thus says 'no' to everything rather than a faction who sees benefits and grow opportunities in cooperation."

[Shadow of War]

"We don't adopt it because we already have our own system, I thought you understood that. A system that works better in our opinion. Astrians are very practical, why change something that works fine if the alternative isn't significantly better?

The ACA is willing to cooperate with the Union. But from what I have seen and heard the Union doesn't seem to feel the same way. No one approaches us if they want support any more. No one wishes to trade with us, other then to buy part of our surplus cheaply. Why do we always need to approach other worlds to trade? Why do other worlds think we won't compromise, just because we voice our point of view with strength. And why is the senate so willing to give it's power to the cabinet by passing a law that ultimately benefits not one but two core worlds?

To be honest, I am amazed most Astrians still support our membership of the Union."

[Danar Sylvia]

"I don't know what the economical situation is of the ACA, but we of the political Consult are aware of the political opinion of most worlds over the ACA. It seems that ACA is not highly recommended as political stable or trustworthy faction. If we are not mistaken, a lot of efforts done by factions to approach the ACA are often meet with distrust or that the ACA thinks they can do it themselves better. This in combination with your, the ACA, senator who likes to counteract the senate and cabinet often without providing sound alternatives makes that factions politically are seeing the ACA more as a liability than as a potential ally. It is not clear what the opinion is of the ACA aside that they don't trust the cabinet. Therefore factions do not often approach the ACA as they don't know when actually to approach them.

Maybe most Astrians support the membership as they realise that being a member is preferable over the alternative of not being a member?"

[Shadow of War]

"I suppose you're right. At the moment the advantages still outweigh the costs.

I would like to hear you name a few examples of efforts done to approach us being declined. Also when Lady-Senator Latharion didn't give an alternative to something the ACA opposed. Because to my knowledge that was a minority of the cases.

While I can't speak for all of my people, I am quite sure that my government does not trust the cabinet. The reason is simple. The Union cabinet should look out for all members. And while some cabinet members have valiantly done so, a number has not. They have forwarded their own agenda under the pretence of looking out for others. Some have also shown a lack of the skills necessary to lead a superpower."

[Danar Sylvia]

((OOC: okay, now we reach the very confusing part about if Shadow of War is still on Turn 112 on Dhiahamara, or that all the events of past year are behind us. This greatly affects what kind of examples I can make.))

"Well, to begin with, the ACA have not been keen to accept any help against the Mandalorians. I don't know what dealings the ACA made with the Veolian Commonwealth, but as far we of the political Consult know the fleets of the Veolian Commonwealth are only welcomed after the Mandalorian fleets were actually at your doorstep. And at that moment the Veolian fleets still had to mobilise.

There were quite some discussions and issues around the Safety of the Union act to say the least.

The ACA spoke a voice in favour of the Special Goods regulation act, but they never voted for it. Making their word in the senate less trustworthy.

I don't know how often the Economical Consult has approached the ACA or the STF, but I know that the reason that our factions have little to no trade is not because of the Teprogrenaian Consensus.

The problem with the ACA simply not trusting the cabinet is that we of the political Consult haven't heard them coming with a viable alternative. Simply saying 'we don't trust the cabinet' does not work into making a better one. You have to come with viable alternatives if your want your voice to be taken seriously."

[Shadow of War]

((OOC: First off: Sorry for the late reply.
Second: Since I believe time in fwurg moves at plot speed. I believe we can include more recent events. :)))

"Of course we didn't vote on the Special Goods regulation act. We were part of the cabinet, we weren't allowed to.

As for allowing Veolian Fleets into our sector. Keep in mind these where two different governments, only after the ACA came into existence where foreign military fleets allowed into our sector.

And to my knowledge Lady-Senator Latharion rarely doesn't come with an alternative.

Besides, you speak as if we are the only world to act this way. Yes we don't always agree with the rest of the Union, but we also try to get worlds to look beyond the obvious. Some of the laws past by the senate benefit certain core worlds more then the rest."

[Danar Sylvia]

"I knew was forgetting something, yes, if the STF was in the government, then of course they didn't vote.

The problem about the STF and the ACA, is that we of the Teprogrenaian Consensus have seen little change, if any at all. The only difference we have noticed is that the Astrian people now say: 'we are ACA', instead of 'STF'. So far, we still don't know who the 'Lord-Master' actually is. For all means and purposes, Lady-Fleet Admiral Lythia Nethorious and Senator Maria Latharion are in power, weren't it for everybody saying they are not.

An example of the ACA displaying no intentions to co-operate is after the war, there were a lot of derelict ships which could be economically salvaged, however, the ACA has let nearly 1500 units of materials gone to waste. I'm not sure, but I believe other members have done efforts to buy or salvage the materials, but instead to co-operate, the ACA closed their borders to recycle fleets. And have I already said that I have let the Economical Consult tell me that for us of the Consensus it is very difficult to trade with the ACA. Not because of the distance, but because the ACA economy is focussed on producing everything themselves. This makes it difficult to find ground for mutually beneficial trades."

Danar Sylvia her voice remained calm and stable while she was explaining.

"A more recent example of the ACA complaining without providing alternatives was during the discussions of a way to formalize the public tenders. Senator Maria Latharion made it quite clear the ACA does not trust the cabinet, but she didn't provide any viable alternatives how to formalize a public draft. And ultimately, the ACA abstained from voting.

Your senator also explained to give care about the opinion of other Union members, as she said that the motion of Sadness holds no power. But if the ACA gives little care about the opinion of other Union members, the other members are ignoring the ACA in return.

And finally, after so clearly stating how the ACA has little trust in the cabinet, they made no effort in running for chancellor themselves in order to improve the Union government.

Your faction might not be the only ones who behave to stable or trustworthy, but you are judged by your behaviour.

Can you give some examples of the laws that benefits the core worlds, and what viable alternatives you know of?"

[Shadow of War]

"I can understand that the differences aren't very obvious from an outside perspective." Shadow said, still as calm as ever.

"But you can't blame us for closing our borders for salvage fleets. I know for a fact that the ACA was willing to let such fleets salvage the wreckages. Only instead of getting approached and being asked for permission to salvage in our sector not one but two individual factions barge into our territory and take what is, according to Union law, ours. That's called theft where I come from. Not to mention a territorial violation. Of course we're going to close our borders to such fleets after that, wouldn't you?

To be completely honest I'm shocked the ACA hasn't pressed charges with the Ministry of Justice."

Still calm he continued.

"I believe the alternative Senator Latharion gave was viable. And the example you ask for would be that exact law. With the Sundarians being the only ones to produce hyperspace nodes and the Veolians the only ones that produce terraformation modules, any public tender from the Union for those goods would allow both of them to set an artificially high price. And because it is a minister that makes and accepts the offer, they could simply invent a project to buy those goods from their own world. With very little reprimanding capability, from the senate, they would get away with it too."

[Danar Sylvia]

"If the derelict ships are from the ACA is actually the question. As there were a lot of Union- and Daryan vessels there as well. Even though the debris was in ACA sector, the Daryans, the minister of defence, and the kingdoms of Meritonia and Komès all had viable claims on parts of the debris scattered in the sector were there was heavy combat. That they haven't done much with it actually surprises us of the Consensus. As there is still a lot of sensible data on derelict ships.

I'm sure other factions have tried in some way to co-operate to get rid of the debris in an economical matter?"


"The alternative of Senator Latharion was insane. A vote for every expense done within the Union is impossible to uphold. A vote for toilet paper, for new garbage bags, data-pads, food, water cleaning, power, new light bulbs, mandatory routine maintenance for like tea makers, music installations, elevator buttons, elevators, cleaning equipment, road maintenance, sky roads, salaries, governmental vehicles, fuel, drinks, the newspaper, a new garbage bin. There are tons and tons of credits going in and out of Unity city, and then you have the money flows in the city as well. The second Maria Latharion her proposal would be active, we would have millions and millions of trivial and unimportant votes about the most stupid expenditures in the Union. That was what her proposal did. And if we would vote about which expenditures we need to vote about and which not, then we have twice the amount of votes and ended up back to were we are now.

If you of the ACA really thinks that the ministers would get away with projects and artificially high prices to benefit their own worlds, then the ACA really has much to learn about politics. Just look at the Praetorian Empire. How often have they done something completely legal, but politically stupid around the capital ship market? All those incidents have cost them dearly. The motion of sadness alone which was passed forced them to leave the public tender concerning the capital ships alone in order to maintain some political face.

Every Union member who artificially make a high bid for products on a public tender, because they are the only producers, can expect a lot of trouble from the senate. If the senate believes a minister to abuse his or her position by using a public tender to move Union taxes to their own world, and the minister is unwilling to listen to the senate, a motion of inquiry will stop the whole transaction, an investigation will determine that the minister abuses his power, and by the time all is done, we of the Union are in the next election period with a different minister, who is a lot less willingly to pay the high prices."

[Shadow of War]

"She didn't say for all expenses, she said a vote for all expenses requiring a public tender. There is quite a difference.

You describe an ideal situation. In my experience ideal situations only exist in theory. I also seriously doubt that the motion of sadness was what forced the Praetorians to back out.

I believe the ACA sold some of the scrapmetal to the Veolians. But other then that no one approached the ACA about it. I'm sure we would have happily aided in the recovery of the wreckages had the actual owners contacted us or if they had informed us they had hired a third party to salvage the wreckages."

"Anyway I would like to change the subject now. Can you tell me something about some of the unique products the Teprogrenaians produce? Other then capitol ships I mean."

[Danar Sylvia]

"Of course." Sylvia said friendly. Then she easily changed the subject to what Shadow of War was interested in: "The Teprogrenaian Consensus has a large metals and gassed industry. This is necessary as we are a large producer of weapon related products and vehicles.

Many of our vehicles find their way to other worlds like the ones from the Praetorian Empire, the Sundarian Federation, the Veolian Commonwealth and even to your, the Astrian Colonial Authorities, worlds.

For our capital ships, we produce a lot of weapon related products. The defensive related products, like shields, scrambles, scanners, and non-lethal weapons like stun guns, tasers and truncheons are available for export. Since recently we are increasing our weapon factories and changing our policies to make the defensive measures more available for other Union members.

Finally, we are in the unique position to import all the materials necessary for large amounts of ICT, and export the final products.

If you like, I can explain more about our economical visions."

[Shadow of War]

"I see. We have a fairly large weapons industry as well. In addition we also produce large amounts of research and electronics.

To be specific we produce a lot of components for holonet relays. High-powered transceiver arrays, processing banks, cables, computer components, the works. The research we do is mostly aimed at improving existing technology or finding a more effective replacement. Additionally we also try to improve the quality of life in general and expand our knowledge of the universe.

Now our entertainment industry is really something to behold. The two most popular parts are interactive computer games and 2D stories, more commonly known as anime. Most of the time a game or a series is made by a single person. This not only leads to a large variety of genres and subjects, but also makes it one of the largest employment sources in the ACA.

The ACA doesn't really have an economic vision. They keep out of the local economy for the most part.

I would like to hear about your views though."

[Danar Sylvia]

"Anime? I am sorry to say I have never heard of it." Sylvia said with a tone of regret in her voice.

"I must confess that I don't know the details of our economy, but I do now the basic outline and our, the Consensus, history.

Our economy started to really grow with the start of the construction of The Cradle. The enormous demand of construction materials was a great stimulus to our metal mines on Samahadrahac, and later Sicanetanis, and I realise that I am telling our history, not our vision." Sylvia said a little embarrassed.

"We wanted to grow into the crystals and metals sector, especially construction materials and electronics were our main goals. Using our existing mines and great growth potentials we wanted to focus on these sectors. However, developments in the Union made us produce large amount of gasses instead of crystals. This is partially because the capital ships demands large amount of gasses.

Our initial idea was to help the Union to build and to protect, but were we started with the wish to be the Union's largest producer of construction materials, we ended up along the way of being the supplier of vehicles.

But if the ACA keeps out of the economy most of the time, how are your, the ACA, economical sector guided towards the best path for growth?"

[Shadow of War]

"Really? I believe we export some of the more popular anime to the Teprogrenaian Consensus. It's possible it appeals more to a specific social group.

As for our economy it's not really guided at all. Entrepreneurs just try to make money, individually or as a group. They make plans to maximize the amount of money they get. This inevitably leads them to the product types that the ACA has a shortage of.

Our economy is organized by non-government groups, people and organizations. The ACA and subfaction governments make sure the playing field is level for all players by means of law and taxation. It's a part of their job to keep the people safe. To protect the consumers from companies, but other then that they do not interfere.

It seems you focus your production on one specific product type, what would you do if there suddenly was no more demand for that type?"